Yugoslavia - Shinny IKOM orders

[paja]

Central medallions with five torches started appearing in huge quantities on the market.


 

[Eric Gaumann]

1 hour ago, paja said:

Order of Brotherhood and Unity 2nd Class
High numbers (30K-60K), hallmarked (IKOM and rooster), mainly those ugly wider screw nuts.
 

Five torches!

I see only one six torch example on Sammler base and it's number is 47,985.  It has a vertical pin which I always equated with more recent emissions.

Wow, those are really shiny and new.  Are they just new old stock (NOS)?  Are they franken-orders made up of old parts and new parts?  Or are they downright copies?

Could the government have made these for export?  In other words to raise revenue?  That seems wildly speculative since these orders are still so common.

 

5 minutes ago, paja said:

Central medallions with five torches started appearing in huge quantities on the market.

I was typing my previous reply when you posted this!  It may just be coincidence, but we might be on to something here. 

 

Edit: effing auto-merge.  

Edited November 2, 2017 by Eric Gaumann

[paja]

Frankly speaking I have no idea where are they coming from and what's the story behind them but they are flooding the market and I don't like them at all.
Those numbered six torches orders had medallions with five torches and screws in the beginning. After the constitutional change of the coat of arms in 1963 orders with five torches had their central medallions replaced with new ones with six torches. Apart from that screws on the back side were cut off and replaced with needles. That's the reason why we can see orders with IKOM hallmark and vertical needle with ZIN/ZNB inscription.
Making orders for export doesn't sound like something any government would do, at least a normal one 

[paja]

A few examples, first 30K and 40K.

Edited November 3, 2017 by paja

[paja]

50K & 60K

[BalkanCollector]

Thanks for the images Paja! 

Take a look at this Brotherhood and Unity with Golden Wreath which was awarded to Hajduk Split Football Club. It was awarded in 1974 but the order has 5 torches which is 11 years after the 6th torch was introduced. It also looks a bit shinny but the photo is not that good so I can't say for sure. These are the only photos I could find.

Edited November 3, 2017 by BalkanCollector

[paja]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I agree with you, looks too shinny, perhaps cleaned - I know, I know, that can't be the answer every time  I've seen some unnumbered five torches orders with double horizontal needle looking that shinny, perhaps some amount of those later variants were coated with lacquer, I'm just guessing. Same goes for the orders with six torches.
If Hajduk's decoration is with screw then it's probably cleaned, at least that's my opinion.
When you look at the document you can see that there's a six torches coat of arms in the upper part but the illustration of the order in the middle is with five torches. That just proves they weren't looking after the details that much. 

[BalkanCollector]

43 minutes ago, paja said:

When you look at the document you can see that there's a six torches coat of arms in the upper part but the illustration of the order in the middle is with five torches. That just proves they weren't looking after the details that much. 

Yes, I've also noticed it. Thanks for pointing that out!

Sorry for getting back to Partisan Stars but take a look at this huge group of 3rd classes. I don't remember where I've seen this photo but I remember that the guy who posted it said he got all of them from IKOM right after the breakup of Yugoslavia. Maybe it's true or maybe he invented the story so he can sell his fakes. If I remember correctly the guy was from Russia.

[Eric Gaumann]

Would we consider these two style screwplates as being often seen with 'shinny' awards?

[paja]

4 hours ago, BalkanCollector said:

Sorry for getting back to Partisan Stars but take a look at this huge group of 3rd classes. I don't remember where I've seen this photo but I remember that the guy who posted it said he got all of them from IKOM right after the breakup of Yugoslavia. Maybe it's true or maybe he invented the story so he can sell his fakes. If I remember correctly the guy was from Russia.

I've seen that photo floating around internet, Tim B posted it HERE.

Some of  his comments that followed:
-"These are actually listed on ebay currently. The guy is trying to sell each one for US $120. or best offer. On another listing, he is selling the entire group. I think $120. is too expensive as you can get these off major dealer sites for less and the soviet made ones (which are better quality) as cheap as $40. if you look around.
Yes, the PIC is nice and I really would like one of these, but not for $120."

-"Well supposedly, I see where the seller claims to have sold one for $89. (I don't believe it though) and now lists only the group sale options (5 for $499. or 50 for $3,499.!!!) Guess he wants $100./ea uh?!  Still claims they are real silver content."

This was back in 2009, 100$ was too expensive even then and nowadays you can get them from 10-15$...

Edited November 3, 2017 by paja

[paja]

26 minutes ago, Eric Gaumann said:

Would we consider these two style screwplates as being often seen with 'shinny' awards?

Yes, I'll post a list to make things easier, it's based on what I've seen so far.
Partisan Star III - both styles 
Partisan Star II - wider
Brotherhood&Unity II - both styles (wider more often)
Brotherhood&Unity I - wider 
Merits for the People III - narrower 
Merits for the People II - narrower 
Order of Labor II - narrower
National Liberation - narrower

This of course doesn't mean anything because they are easily interchangeable.

[paja]

Order of Brotherhood and Unity 1st Class
I've seen around 30-40 pieces with 17XX-18XX number, hallmarked (IKOM and rooster), wider screw nuts. Since they started appearing price has dropped and now you can get them for as low as 60 euros online.
A few 17XX examples





 

Edited November 5, 2017 by paja

[paja]

18XX

[paja]

One more unusual shinny order from emedals, unlike the previous examples this one's not numbered.

"A Yugoslavian Order of Brotherhood and Unity; 1st Class - With Golden Wreath (1st Class), in silver, silver gilt and enamels, 47mm, in .800 silver, weighs 41.4 grams, maker marked on reverse, silver hallmarked, un issued, in mint condition (in paper pocket of issue)."
LINK

Edited November 5, 2017 by paja

[Eric Gaumann]

4 hours ago, paja said:

One more unusual shinny order from emedals, unlike the previous examples this one's not numbered.

Sheesh, that's super extra shinny.  Surely this example's been polished by a professional in the very recent past?

[BalkanCollector]

Some more shinny stars being offered on facebook by the same seller.

He is selling the 2nd class for 3,000 RSD and 3rd class for 1,500 RSD.

Another 2nd class IKOM type he's selling for 12,000 RSD. "The rare type" as he says.

[Kallarati Heroik]

BE ATTENTION.

ONE SELLER FROM GREECE, ON EBAY, IS SELLING FAKE REPLICA ORDERS OF IKOM & PRAWEMA,

[BalkanCollector]

22 minutes ago, Kallarati Heroik said:

BE ATTENTION.

ONE SELLER FROM GREECE, ON EBAY, IS SELLING FAKE REPLICA ORDERS OF IKOM & PRAWEMA,

Thank you for your input! Feel free to add some pictures here.

[Eric Gaumann]

This one is decidedly NOT shinny.

[BalkanCollector]

Some more IKOM Partisan stars 2nd class. I've already seen a lot of shinny soviet made stars from the same seller that is selling these. http://www.njuskalo.hr/korisnik/gudurasv

Edited November 7, 2017 by BalkanCollector

[paja]

On 11/5/2017 at 23:12, Eric Gaumann said:

Sheesh, that's super extra shinny.  Surely this example's been polished by a professional in the very recent past?

I won't claim it's fake but how many unnumbered screw orders have we seen in the past? I remember only one which seemed a bit suspicious to me, especially the central medallion, its torches were "grainy".

22 hours ago, BalkanCollector said:

Some more shinny stars being offered on facebook by the same seller.

He is selling the 2nd class for 3,000 RSD and 3rd class for 1,500 RSD.

Another 2nd class IKOM type he's selling for 12,000 RSD. "The rare type" as he says.

3.000 RSD is around 25 EUR and 1.500 is obviously half of that amount.
12.000 is a bit expensive, you can get them around 25-30% cheaper 
What's up with its screw nut??

Edited November 7, 2017 by paja

[BalkanCollector]

21 minutes ago, paja said:

What's up with its screw nut??

Thanks for pointing that out! Looks like someone's machines are a bit shaky and imprecise.  

Edited November 7, 2017 by BalkanCollector

[paja]

Thank you as well for posting links to ads from njuškalo.hr, the seller labels those two orders as type 1 (#7718) and type 2 (#7697). If I'm not mistaken apart from different numbering "font", type two has no hallmarks nor Roman numeral. The one from Facebook with bad screw nuts looks the same. 
By the way asking price for those two from njuškalo is 600 HRK or around 80 EUR.

Edited November 7, 2017 by paja

[Eric Gaumann]

Another thing that come to mind is the seemingly large numbers of medium grade Yugo orders that come with their award cases.  Usually awards came in cases that were mostly discarded after receipt. 

Many soldiers of the world got their awards and wore them on their uniforms.  The boxes they came in were either thrown out, kept in a footlocker separate from the uniform, or maybe kept at home.

Why are so many Yugo awards for sale with their award cases?  Granted there was not much going on in the Balkans in the 50s and 60s (correct me if I am wrong) but are most of these awards with cases surplus from unawarded stock from The Mint?

Did maybe Tito and his cult followers expect Yugoslavia to be such a major player in Balkan or Mediterranean politics that they just went wild with minting awards that would never be bestowed?

 

[paja]

16 hours ago, Eric Gaumann said:

Another thing that come to mind is the seemingly large numbers of medium grade Yugo orders that come with their award cases.  Usually awards came in cases that were mostly discarded after receipt. 

Many soldiers of the world got their awards and wore them on their uniforms.  The boxes they came in were either thrown out, kept in a footlocker separate from the uniform, or maybe kept at home.

Total number of awarded decorations is estimated to around 2.000.000. Number of decorations awarded during the war is not that significant, we're speaking about tens of thousands. First decorations were issued in September 1944, and during the entire 1945 55.000 of them were awarded, bigger part probably after May. So only around a percent or two of the total number of decorations were awarded during the war. I can understand if most of the boxes for the "field" decorations were discarded but I don't see why would someone throw away the box of the decoration issued during piece time.
Soldiers and officers probably wore their decorations every day during the war and some time after it but I don't think that was the case later. Regulations from 1946 state that members of the military personnel were obliged to wear decorations only during the state holidays and military ceremonies. 

16 hours ago, Eric Gaumann said:

Why are so many Yugo awards for sale with their award cases?  Granted there was not much going on in the Balkans in the 50s and 60s (correct me if I am wrong) but are most of these awards with cases surplus from unawarded stock from The Mint?

Did maybe Tito and his cult followers expect Yugoslavia to be such a major player in Balkan or Mediterranean politics that they just went wild with minting awards that would never be bestowed?

I think it's quite the opposite, decorations with boxes were most probably awarded. Those allegedly unawarded shinny pieces are being sold without boxes. Sellers sometimes combine orders with boxes at their disposal, apart from that I've seen packages filled with boxes, someone "found a stash" of those as well.
Some of the ones I've seen in the past include:
Labor Order 3rd class (blue)
Labor Order 2nd class (gray)
Merits for the People 2nd and 3rd class (red)
Order of the Republic 2nd and 3rd class (red)
Military Merits Medal (blue)
Merits for the People Medal (red)
Labor Medal (gray)

Edited November 8, 2017 by paja