Soviet Honored NKVD Badge......

[Stogieman]

I believe this to be a much earlier version than we have seen before. The serial number certainly is as is the construction style. There's 60 years plus of crud/dirt on this one.

[Stogieman]

The uniform it was pinned to. Insert photo is from the inside of the tunic.

[Stogieman]

Color tabs/rank insignia. Our Honored Employee was a Major.

[Stogieman]

Here's a "lightened" photo series of the badge. The disc is tiny... edges are striated, just like a US quarter or dime.

[Stogieman]

One of the seller's photos. I honestly think I was the first person to take the badge of the uniform in about 60 years.....

[Ed_Haynes]

Nice, nice . . . .

[Guest Rick Research]

And yes that IS "crud" (Crudex Patinicus Effluvius Incognito for the technically minded) and not artificial patina slapped on. It is, rather, partial cleaning trying to get any scan that did not look like a chunka anthracite. Impossible to CLEAN the wretched little thing without the of tearing something right off the prongies.

There are also fossilized prints of the sword projection in the cloth which got flattened out by Yrs Truly trying to get straight up and down scans without being all wrinkly shadows.

The gimnastyorka itself is marked 1941 from the Factory "in the name of Engels," Minsk. Rank bricks are original and spaced that way when applied. Not "improved" from a lower rank since one has had its prongs mangled and can see underneath that no square or triangle was ever there-- AND the sleeve insignias match for senior officers (gold with silver).

[Stogieman]

And the sleeve badges that confirm senior officer:

[gor]

Sorry,but it isn't original on my opinion. Badge and sleeve badges are not good.It is not Mondvor quality of work for this very known award and badge is different from standart examples.

[Guest Rick Research]

Thank you for your opinion. On what is that opinion based? Specific illustrations, please.

[NavyFCO]

Here's my assessment (and take it for what it's worth...)

I'm not a fan of the badge. The reasons why for me not liking it are several:

1- I really, really don't like the enamel on the badge. It's exceedingly inferior to anything I've ever seen on a mint-made piece. I don't like the lettering for the NKVD at the bottom of the scroll. Based on the scans, I'd almost say it looks like dark red paint., especially around the letters.

2- I don't like the "splash" of red enamel on the reverse of the badge. Really sloppy, and I doubt that would have ever made it past Soviet quality control (which they did have at the Mint)

3- I also don't like the finished edge of the badge, as you can see from the area where it appears that too much flashing was out of the die and that was filed down on the bottom reverse edge of the piece.

I'm by no means an expert on fakes, but just based on what I've seen before, I don't like this one.

Standing by to be corrected...

Dave

[NavyFCO]

Looking at the uniform jacket as well, I'm not a fan of how clean the buttons are, compared with how dirty the uniform is. They almost look... new...

This didn't come from a certain seller in Boston, did it?

Dave

[NavyFCO]

Looking at it more, I'd almost guarantee that the screwnut has a chemically applied patina to it. It wasn't fully conducive to the chemical patina, so that's why the patina fluid dried in splotches instead of evently.

Also, thinking of patina, I would be curious as to how the pattern of patina ended up on the back of the badge? Note that if the badge had been on the gymnastorka for a while, there would be less patina on the front than on the back, and on top of that, all of the high areas on the back of the badge would be polished off, particularly around the edges, where the uniform cloth would have moved against the badge, even in transport. But if you look at the badge, only a few of the high areas are clean from patina, and all of the edges around the rim aren't clear of patina - in fact, several of the spots on the edges appear to have as heavy a patina as on the front!

Furthermore, the soiling of the badge onto the uniform cloth can be explained by the maker applying patina fluid on the badge, then putting it onto the uniform. Then, he probably took a steam iron to it, which drew the patina fluid (which can be diluted with water) through the uniform material, and collected on the reverse - creating both the "old" looking holes and the patina ring on the inside of the uniform.

I guess this makes my six cents now...

Dave

[Stogieman]

Lighter spots where patina is worn is from an aborted attempt to clean the badge.

Buttons look "bright" from flashback from the scanner.

[NavyFCO]

Here's a photo that I edited to show what I was thinking. The numbers correspond with the numbers in my post, and the "A" is for where I think I can see that the patina is chemically applied.

I could be 100% wrong, and I am not devout enough a believer in my fake detection abilities to proclaim that it's good or bad, but were it me and I was buying it based on these photos, I'd probably pass on it even if it were a "good deal". Just too many things I don't like about it, that's all.

I still think it looks like the product of a certain Boston-based eBay seller...

Dave

[Stogieman]

I've removed my photos from the thread.

I have only a few comments to make here.

The uniform is the same type/style/make as another NKVD uniform that was gushed over.

Same source.

Same source as the pilot uniform that was gushed over.

I spoke directly to Robert Pandis, the man who wrote the treatise and currently accepted standard body of work on Honored Employee badges. Robert also wrote the treatise/published work on Imperial German Aviation Badges. Two years later he reversed his published work on aviation badges.

Robert put me in touch with a small group of individuals who were the "experts". What I found was that they could not even agree amongst themselves as to what constituted "real" & what constituted "fake". Same badge shown to four different people and no consensus could be found. Same situation with several documents, including documents/badges from the most trusted source in the US and two groups that were direct family purchases. Again, no consensus. What was even more unusual was that one of the "experts" went so far to ask me what I would be willing to pay for one of his badges, which of course was "real".

What I have found in Soviet is that there's no shortage of the word "fake", but a clear unwillingness to document and/or back up the assertations with any kind of documentation, facts, or details.

I have asked repeatedly, in several places for people to post their examples of these badges and to supply weights, dimensions and details. No one steps up to the plate. Apparently no one has a real one. With one exception of a collector who asked for anonymity who supplied me with detailed photos and dimensions and weights. (which this badge was consistent with BTW)...... of course again the "experts" were evenly split on this group as well... rather interesting, isn't it?

Apparently, every single one of these badges that one will ever find is an outright fake........

Unfortunately, it seems that so little is really known about these badges by so few people that no real discussion can take place. I anxiously await the open sharing of information as we find in so many other genres.

Frankly, I find the unwillingness to share details and information beyond the word "fake" quite discouraging.

But such is life in the collecting field.

[Ed_Haynes]

Wow, Rick.

What a thoroughly "ungentlemanly" response you have receivced. How odd. How disturbing.

[NavyFCO]

Whoa folks!!!!!!!!!!!!

I said up front in my post that I am by no means an expert on this sort of thing, but I think it only right that if one of our fellow forum-ites bought something that was less than genuine, that it's our responsibility to make constructive comments to guide them in what we believe to be the truth.

I personally don't think that I have by any means been "out of bounds" with my comments about the badge and/or uniform. I could have just said "I think it's fake" like many other posters here on the forum without any substance to my claims. Instead, I thought I did a decent job in respectfully laying out my opinions on the pieces.

Have I ever seen or felt any of these badges, or have any that I can post for weights or measures? No. However, I have been collecting Soviet awards and badges since my first time in the former USSR back in 1992 (April, to be exact) and in the last fourteen years I have seen, owned and handled literally thousands of medals and badges produced during the time of the USSR and conversely, those produced after the fall of the USSR in an attempt to deceive. I think I've got a good feeling for what Mint-produced pieces should and should not look like, and in my honest opinion, I don't think this badge looks like anything that Monetni Dvor would have ever allowed out their gates. But, as I put into my earlier posts, I could be 100% wrong and I'll take the beating over it - shame on me for my opinion if someone who knows these badges better can verify that this one is legit. And Rick, for your sake, I hope that it is real as you probably put out decent money on it.

I do apologize if my posts were taken wrongly. I did not intend that in any amount. I was simply trying to be helpful! If I should take down my posts, let me know and I will do so.

Dave

[Stogieman]

David my comments above are factual...... every time I have tried to get someone to talk about these items it's the same story, the same half-truths/misinformation and the same secret society type nonsense. And I am not kidding...... the "experts" cannot come to a consensus amongst themselves.

I fail to understand how anyone could ever hope to even begin to learn about things that the folks that have been around for awhile refuse to discuss.

I have looked at just about every single published photograph around on these badges for the last 8 months. Stared at them for hour after hour after hour......... made comparison photo merges and on and on and on....... you know what? There are none that are exactly the same. Doesn't matter. NKVD, MOOP, MVD no identical badges but lots of badges that are very similar and this includes badges that are within 100 of each other for serial numbers. let's talk serial numbers. The bulk of the NKVD badges out there are 4000++ in serial numbers..... or higher. There appears to be at least 3 different serial number runs.... I don't buy for a minute that all were made at one mint. My outsider point of view.

Same deal with the uniform. The prior NKVD uni (Captain) I posted......... no one had any problems there. In order for me to accept the fact that the uniform is garbage.... this means:

Fake Visor Cap with fake maker stamps

Fake uniform with fake cuffs, fake piping, fake collar tabs, fake rank devices, fake maker stamps, etc., etc.

How many NKVD Officer Field Uniforms have even come on the market in the past 20 years? I'm hearing a handful at best.......

So there's no baseline

There's no standards

There's no discussion

the experts themselves cannot agree

but everyone leaps to inconsistent conclusions

David, I don't think your remarks are innappropriate at all and you're certainly entitled to not just your opinion but the right to express it freely.

I will ever and always defend your right to express yourself here, whether I agree with the opinion expressed or not......

[NavyFCO]

So there's no baseline

There's no standards

There's no discussion

the experts themselves cannot agree

Rick-

I think you fairly well hit it there. Some of this stuff is rare enough where there aren't many experts out there on it. Just imagine my chagrin at some of the Russian Civil War stuff that I collect where I am the only (known) collector of such-and-such type of thing in the US... A lot of it is new trail blazing, that's for sure!

I too have run into experts that are all to eager to weigh in their opinions. I think there might be a bit of a language barrier as some of the Russian collectors that I correspond with (not many US collectors that collect RCW uniforms!) have no problem with labelling something that I have as "fake" and giving no elaboration. Just recently, as an example, I showed one of my flags (and a poor photo of it, I might add) that I am 100000% confident in it's originality to a Russian collecting counterpart of mine who simply told me "It's a fake, I've seen several of those in the past two years. All are fake." I was like... "Uh... okay... so explain to me how you can figure that out from a 500 pixel-wide side view shot of the flag???" OF course, no further elaboration than "I know it's fake". It put me in the same position as you... thinking "That don't help me much!" But, hey, I've learned a lot from the guy, and just chocked that as one more thing to learn from him: Don't show him pictures of that flag!

Back the NKVD egg... Unfortunately, you're running into difficulty because of two things. First, there are very few collectors of this type of stuff in the US, or the West for that matter. For every twenty collectors of Soviet orders and medals, you might find one or two collectors who would buy this sort of badge. I'm not saying they're bad, it's just that they're pretty pricey to "cut" one's teeth on (best analogy I can think of with a teething wee one in the house!) with at least a $650 layout just to get one badge... let alone with document, cloth, etc.

The second issue is that there are quite a few collectors of these over in Russia, and there are quite a few collectors in Russia with the money to buy these. Anytime there's collectors with money willing to buy stuff there will be fakes, and these have been churned out as fakes as early as when I was seeing fake ones frequently on the market by the time I left Russia for the last time in October 1996. Badges, documents, you name it - all of these have been turned out for the better part of a decade in decent (and often near perfect) quality.

So, you have the situation where you're one of few collectors here who collect these things in a sea of fakes - and a sea of good fakes at that. It's unfortunately a tough thing to collect and a collecting field filled with both landmines and no good maps to make your way through the field!

I wish I could offer better advice than this, but this is one of those few things where it's easier to point out what's bad on something than what's good on a "good" one as I have seen very few that I would be completely confident in their originality on the market over the past fourteen years.

Dave

[Stogieman]

But it's the same situation as the uniform.....

Captain's uniform is clear-cut NKVD with correct pleated pockets, etc., etc., etc.

Major's uniform is clearly Army blouse made as NKVD (high) officer, 1. quality, etc., etc.

Piping, tabs, devices, buttons (correct WW2 2-part) stitching, maker stamps...... all are right as rain.

Plain and simple, no-one knows. These types of items simply do not appear on the market so there's not much of anything you can compare to.

We really need to get you up here, or maybe if I can visit my sister in Fredericksburg we can meet up. Like to see Robert as well, he's greater DC, should be able to figure this out somehow, sometime.

I like minefields....... let's me show people how "detail-oriented" I am.....

Check the Narod.Ru site on these..... every single badge is different! There simply is no consistency in these predominently hand-made, hand-finished pieces....

Frustrates the heck out of me.

[Alfred]

Here is one of these widely spread fakes of NKVD badges, or at least/at best the backplate is a fake. The backplate is made of some weird metal. It?s not silver.

regards

Andreas

Edited April 17, 2006 by Alfred

[Alfred]

and the reverse

[NavyFCO]

Here's one that's being currently offered on e! I'm still not 100% of a fan of this one, but it's much closer to what I'd expect of a real one to look like. Note the quality of the NKVD lettering, and the like. Unfortunately, the enamel still looks a bit too "shallow" and insufficiently translucent enough to be the original enamel... though I could be wrong.

Dave

[NavyFCO]

The backside. Note how the screwpost has been replaced (duh). It appears that the back was damaged quite considerably, though before the damage you can see that it was pretty well made.