Stogieman Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 While quite interesting.... I'm not sure this combination is really possible. Where's the campaign medal that goes with the RAO4wX? Am I wrong? Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted April 13, 2006 Author Share Posted April 13, 2006 I really love pictures like this that make my (Truly) Evil Twin have to curse side to side. ;>) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 Can't be many Zanzibari orders among the sausages?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted April 13, 2006 Author Share Posted April 13, 2006 Seller's description: "Group of 3; Prussia; Order of the Red Eagle Knight 1st type with swords , smooth arms ( one sword replaced), Prussia Officers L.S. Cross 25 years gilt, Zanzibar Order of the Brilliant Star Knight Sultan Hamad 1893-1896, court mounted, a rare group (L12464) G.V.F. ?995" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted April 13, 2006 Author Share Posted April 13, 2006 Ahhh yes, my other issue here is the "pebbled" arms of the Officer's 25-Year LSC doesn't jibe with the age of the other 2 pieces.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 Looks like a perfectly good circa 1895 bar. Remember!! -- all that overseas time counted double, hence no 1870 and this is pre-1897!)This was Lot 736 in the 2002 Siebentritt auction. He apparently had the market cornered on Zanzibar awards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted April 14, 2006 Author Share Posted April 14, 2006 Pre-1897 doesn't match the LSC, arms should be smooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 I don't know as an EXACT change-over date has ever been determined for the XXVs-- after all, the suspension loop is repaired, as well. The REO4X has had a number of dents and dings too.Still, this bar did sell in the Siebentritt auction just over 3 years agoit always amazes me how many "collectors" are really just "renters"and the combination sugests to me a Schutztruppen type possibly retired before 1897 (thus never received that medal) who could have been wearing this in 1910 or so. No way to tell without documents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted April 14, 2006 Author Share Posted April 14, 2006 OK, double-checked in Nimmergut's.. Change was 1895... so I suppose it's possible....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 (edited) It would be interesting to see the back.What I find a bit strange (I'm being a bit anal... I know! ) is the fact that the RAO is worn with the ring out, showing, instead of the other two orders with their rings nicely tucked in and covered with their ribbons. As you can see the RAO has been more worn than the other to medals (medallion quite damaged). Maybe the wearer displayed on his breast only that order or was wearing it also without the other two medals.I remember Siebentritt's auction... it was quite an epic one!!! With the most magnificent Colonial medal bars and groups.Here below I just show you an highlight of this auction... I didn't scan the page dedicated to the Zanzibar orders. If I remember well, most of the them didn't sell immediately during the auction, maybe because many collectors did find it too exotical or just didn't know about this order.Ciao,Claudio Edited April 14, 2006 by Claudio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeikoGrusdat Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 Stogie, is this medal bar up for sale again now??? Where??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Murphy Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 I would imagine that, if the bar is real, that it is from the time of the Helgoland-Zanzibar treaty. The island of Witu (now Wituland) was part of Zanzibar and was a German protectorate . Since I do not know anything about orders from Zanzibar, I would say the colonial officer was awarded it pre 1890. In 1890 the above treaty was signed which made all of Zanzibar a British protectorate and gave the Germans the Island of Helgoland. At this time there was widespead rioting by the population of Witu against the Germans who they felt were abandoning them. I believe that the officer was then most likely awarded the RAOX for some action at this time. There was no campaign medal so it cannot be on the bar. Most likely the officer also retired before WW1. Well?.....Am I close?Dan Murphy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted April 14, 2006 Author Share Posted April 14, 2006 Hi Daniel, seems quite plausible and I have no clue, hence the quiz. Seemed far-fetched to have the combat decoration and nothing associated for a campaign.... but it's starting to sound more & more possible..... ach, but the price! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeikoGrusdat Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 may I ask a simple question as I do not know much about the Zanzibar order system... does the class of this Zanzibar order on this bar go together with the 4th class RAO??? So we have someone between 1870 and 1897 (no 70/71 and no Centenarmedal) with a swords award 4th class (Leutnant,Oberleutnant or something like this) for actions in Zanzibar, DOA or somewhere there and a 25y service cross ( I know war years count double) - I think it is impossible, or? Long service, low rank and not too much years of war in this very small period..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 I'd say almost certainly a colonial service officer with years and years of African army duty (all counted double) and no prospects whatsoever for promotion, hanging in there as a Hauptmann. My pre-1900 sources are few, but I did find several senior naval officers with the RAO4X for Zanzibar and this class of the Brilliant Star. None match for the long service time and no 1897. That's not to say the bar didn't belong to an Imperial navy officer who had retired before 1897-- I just don't have Rank Lists to adequately cover the 1890s for either army or navy.There is also the possibility that this XXV was SELF-awarded by a colonial POLICE officer-- or that this went to a planter in an ad hoc "military" volunteers unit who originally had an XX that somebody has swapped off the bar. Very strange things went on far far away from home in the 1890s! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted April 14, 2006 Author Share Posted April 14, 2006 But.... would he have not been required to show his Urkunde for the 25-Year LSC in order to purchase one? I thought you were not allowed to purchase medals/awards you were not entitled to?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 (edited) may I ask a simple question as I do not know much about the Zanzibar order system... does the class of this Zanzibar order on this bar go together with the 4th class RAO??? I'm not quite sure what you are asking here, Heiko. The sultan awarded those classes he felt were deserved for services rendered to him. While there were limits of numbers in each class for Zanzibaris, they played fast and loose with awards to exotic foreigners (most of them British).The Order of the Brilliant Star of Zanzibar (Wisam al-Kawkab al-Durri al-Zanzibari) had founded by Sultan Sayyid Majid bin Said in 1865, was modified and extended by Sultan Sayyid Barghash bin Said in 1875, and was modified again by Sultan Sayyid Khalifa II bin Harub in 1918. The order came in five classes (First Class, 40 members; Second Class, 60 members; Third Class, 80 members; Fourth Class, 90 members; Fifth Class, 100 members) and became obsolete in 1964.This is a fifth class award, from the reign of Sultan Sayyid Hamid ibn Thuwayni (March 1893-August 1896).See Christopher Buyers' http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Tanzania/zanzibar.htm as a good starting point. Edited April 14, 2006 by Ed_Haynes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 This was described as a "2nd Class, 4th Grade (Knight's Cross)" in the sale."But.... would he have not been required to show his Urkunde for the 25-Year LSC in order to purchase one? I thought you were not allowed to purchase medals/awards you were not entitled to??"In an area of, say, the size of Belgium with 40 "White Men" I doubt either supplies or regulations mattered much, locally. Eccentricity has a way of flourishing under such conditions. Many years ago Jeff Floyd had a medal bar to one of those incredibly ancient, worked-until-they-died/pensions-sucked Beamten who had a self-bestowed HHO Crown on top of his XXV Years Service Cross on his Weimar era 1866-WW1 medal bar. It obviously represented FIFTY years of service to him....I'd say colonial backwaters probably saw things as strange as Weimar for "anything goes," with characters running around like Tom von Prince proving the old Truth Is Stranger Than Fiction clich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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