Civil War

[John]

What was the popint of the American civil war? It was presumably about slavery, but they had segregation /apartheid that went on for 150 years.
Why bother? :blink:

[John]

But what did the slaves think about it? I bet they weren't happy at suddenly being made redundant....
Bloody Northen do gooders....

[Craig]

By the start of The Civil War very few actual slaves were still in bondage due to modern farming methods that made manual work too slow. A lot of slaves had actually been freed by there owners but stayed on the plantation for the work and shelter.
Freed Slaves who made there way North were not particualy welcome though certain States notably Mass. did afforded them certain rights.

Even Abraham Lincoln did not agree for former slaves to be totally assimilated into the white world.
This is seen with the names that freed Slaves gave themselves at the end of the War as can been seen in the surnames of many African Americans now such as Washington, Jefferson but very few Lincolns !

Following the end of the War Civil rights were kept from the black population in the Southern States by the use of what was called " The Jim Crow laws " by the use of these State laws which were backed up by the Supreme Court Blacks were indeed in Apartheid laws. Most notably the lack of voting rights. Georgia state in the 1950's required all Blacks to undertake an intelligence test in order to vote. In certain counties if a black voter passed these test they were then given a Latin quotation to translate. Funnily very few passed.
It is Ironic that full civil rights were given to Black citizens under the Presidency of a Southern Lyndon B Johnson a Texan.

[John]

Sounds bizarre, and very interesting. So good old Abe wasn't a particularly good bloke then. Funny, how history is selective... I still don't understand why they picked up arms , to be become the most casualty intensive war has has ever seen.
Oh well... :blink:

[CJS]

The American Civil War started a battle between States Right (The South) vs National Soverenty (sp) (The North or the Union).

The Union took up the banner of anti-salvery to take the moral high ground.

The States Rights battle began with the framers of the US Consitution:
Jefferson for individual rights of the states first vs Hamilton for national rights above state rights

[Guest John Sukey]

Lincoln was a man of his times. His intent was to preserve the Union.
If I can preserve the Union by freeing none of the slaves I will do it
I f I can preserve the union by freeing some of the slaves, I will do it
If I can preserve the union by freeing all of the slaves I will do it.
As the South was initialy having success on the battlefield, it was not until Gettysburg that Lincoln made the proclamation, as to do so earlier would have seemed an act of desperation. Oddly enough black people fought on BOTH sides in that war. It had been said by some southerners that"We should have freed the slaves and then seceeded!

Northern abolitionists were not satisfied unless all of the slaves were freed.
Many were either freed or bought from their former owners and land in Africa was purchased for them, resulting in Liberia. Now the interesting part is that when these freed slaves arrived in their new country, they went into the slave trading business! There is the myth that whites went out and captured slaves, then transported them to America. It was other natives of that country that captured their fellow men and sold them to the white ship owners. Slavery is still alive and well on the African continent. Just my opinion but the practice of slavery is odious.
The only reason it remained in America was the invention of the Cotton Gin by Eli Whitney, making the raising and most important, the cleaning of cotton, cost effective. Prior to that, the seeds had to be removed from the cotton bolls by hand.
As for what slaves thought about being made redundant, being made slaves in the first place was not very pleasent. Countless numbers of people died on the crowded slave ships before they even got across the ocean. By crowding, I mean not having enough room to even turn around below decks.and one could not imagine in their wildest dreams the filth.

Another interesting point, when black people decide to find their "roots" and travel to africa, they are not looked on as "brothers" but rather as Americans. Learning Swahili to communicate was another joke as the locals often have a better command of the english language than their "brothers"

anyway, the civil war was mostly about economics, the largely rural south against the industrialized north.
Most southerners were not slave owners. as mentioned, they were fighting for states rights.

[John]

Very interesting. Its incredible that such a casualty intensive civil war was really just the same old load of 'pony' but in a massive scale.
I won't be voting for Abe Lincoln again...

[John]

Is it true that this was the first time Balloons were used in a military capacity?

[Guest John Sukey]

I thought the french predated the civil war in the use of baloons for military purposes.

[John]

I'm not sure. I thought the French invented it, but the US used it first in wartime.... ?
Are people still bitter about the American civil War?

[Guest dimdem]

I'm not sure. I thought the French invented it, but the US used it first in wartime.... ?

   Are people still bitter about the American civil War?

←

Yes, a bit. In the Southern states one still often sees the Confederate battle flag. THere are people who fly it from their homes and others who put bumper stickers (decals, that is to say) on their cars---or rather on their pickup trucks. Displays of the flag have been a real point of contention here in recent years. Some southern states incorporate it into their state flags, and this has led to several protests and tourism boycotts. Some schools prohibit students from wearing clothing that displays it, and this has raised free speech issues. Just within the last two weeks a girl in high school (6th form, for Brits?) was barred from attending a school dance because the battle flag was part of her dress! N.B. It isn't white Northerners who are most offended by the flag, but rather African-Americans. For most white Northerners I think the war is just dead history. Although of course those of us of liberal disposition find the idea that public entities would display the flag of the slave owners pretty offensive.

As to the why of the war: It is too simple to say that it was fought over slavery, but this was a bigger part of the story than some here in the South (I'm essentially of Northern descent but now live in Virginia) want to admit. The immediate cause of the war was the North's refusal to let the South secede, not slavery. But why did the South want to secede? Part of the answer concerns matters other than slavery, like tariffs. Another part, though, concerns the fact that the anti-slavery movement in the North was wanting to prevent the spread of slavery to new territories. The slaveholders wanted to expand the area in which slavery was permitted to new Western territories that were coming into the country. I've read that this was considered necessary because crops like cotton exhaust the soil. If slavery didn't expand to new areas it would die a natural death because it would no longer be feasible to grow the kinds of crops that made the use of slave labor economically attractive.

[Nick]

Didem

Thanks for the informative update. I am afraid the little I know about the US civil war has been gleaned from novels like Copperhead by Bernard Cornwall.

[John]

That was a rally interesting post Dimdem. We are taught nothing about the American Civil War, yet it was an enormous war.

I didn't realise it was such a massive issue, as regards to the Confederate flag. We also have a problem in UK , with flying the Union Flag, because of its association with Skinheads( racist thugs), which is sad, particularly as every one else flies their flag here.

[John]

Who was Paul Revere?

[Guest dimdem]

Does the St. George Cross carry any sinister connotations? Here it only signifies an excellent local microbrewery.

It is no surprise that you learn nothing of our Civil War (except maybe the Trent affair?), because we learn nothing about yours. I'm a college professor, and I taught a class last term where I probably said everything I know about the English Civil War in the space of 5 minutes. And of course it still mostly news to the students. My school is a 45 minute drive from the College of William and Mary, and I am sure most of the students had no idea who they were.

(Edit: Yes, I know I'm running together the CW and the GR here. )

I don't know if you are quite serious about Paul Revere. He was a Boston silversmith, though, who is famous for having warned of a British move against Lexington MA. This site relates far more than I know.

Edited January 8, 2005 by dimdem

[Ralph A]

By the start of The Civil War very few actual slaves were still in bondage due to modern farming methods that made manual work too slow. A lot of slaves had actually been freed by there owners but stayed on the plantation for the work and shelter.

Freed Slaves who made there way North were not particualy welcome though certain States notably Mass. did afforded them certain rights.

Actually... the introduction of the cotton gin again made slavery a viable institution for the South, so the reverse of what you say here is true.

[JBeltram]

By the start of The Civil War very few actual slaves were still in bondage due to modern farming methods that made manual work too slow. A lot of slaves had actually been freed by there owners but stayed on the plantation for the work and shelter.

Freed Slaves who made there way North were not particualy welcome though certain States notably Mass. did afforded them certain rights.

Even Abraham Lincoln did not agree for former slaves to be totally assimilated into the white world.

This is seen with the names that freed Slaves gave themselves at the end of the War as can been seen in the surnames of many African Americans now such as Washington, Jefferson but very few Lincolns !

Following the end of the War Civil rights were kept from the black population in the Southern States by the use of what was called " The Jim Crow laws " by the use of these State laws which were backed up by the Supreme Court Blacks were indeed in Apartheid laws. Most notably the lack of voting rights. Georgia state in the 1950's required all Blacks to undertake an intelligence test in order to vote. In certain counties if a black voter passed these test they were then given a Latin quotation to translate. Funnily very few passed.

It is Ironic that full civil rights were given to Black citizens under the Presidency of a Southern Lyndon B Johnson a Texan.

←

Hello,

To begin with the US Civil War was about how far the rights of the state should go and where does the power of the federal government end and begin. Lincoln was anti-slavery (was not on the ballot in 10 southern states in 1860), but he did not want to end slavery in 1860. Lincoln wanted to restrict slavery to new states coming into the union. Lincoln wanted to prevent another "bleeding Kansas". Keep in mind when the US Civil War began, border states that stayed in the union like Maryland and Kentucky could still retain their slaves. Even the Emacipation Proclamation did not free slaves in these border states (that came later on in the war). The Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in states that were in rebellion with the union and were occupied by federal troops. Once federal troops entered Confederate territory the Emancipation Proclamtion came into effect.

Slavery was far from being on the decline at the start of the US Civil War. Even though shipping slaves from Afirca had ended by the early 1800's, slavery had increased in the South with the invention of the cotton gin (Ralph pointed that out). The cotton gin allowed more lint to be removed from the cotton, as a result cotton production increased and the need for more slaves to farm and harvest it. As a result, the South could sell more cotton to nations like Great Britain.

By the late 1840's slave families were now being split up more and more. Slave marriages were not considered to be legal in the South, but Southern owners stilll allowed it, as the famous Ken Burns documentary put it, slaves wedding vows now had in them "till death or distance do you part". That shows how easy it was by the late 1850's to have the family unit broken up and sold. In states like Mississippi when the war began almost 7 out of 10 people belonged to someone else. So slavery (particularly in the cotton states) was far from being on the decline in the South at the start of the Civil War.

After Lincoln's death on April 15, 1865, most free blacks and former slaves did hold Lincoln in high regard. Lincoln did not believe in giving them full rights but he did support given black males the right to vote (no women had the right to vote in the US and the 19th amedment was far off). When it came to picking last names, most African Americans picked known names like Jefferson and Washington. The reason Lincoln's name was not picked is simple. Lincoln was too current and most blacks felt too close to him to use his last name and which many felt they could not live up to it. Probably a reason why caucasions don't name their boys Jesus. In many of the black churches in the later 19th and early 20th century Lincoln's picture did hang in these churches and in many times shared the same wall with the Christian cross.

Lyndon B. Johnson was a politician first and knew that the passing of the 1964 Civil Rights Act would help secure the black vote not only in the south but in the north where blacks for years had voted Republican. That part worked, for most blacks today are members of the Democratic party. I think in the last election one news poll said it was almost 89%. Keep in mind the Civil Right Act did not pass when JFK was president and the reason it passed in 1964, wasn't so much support of LBJ, but to pay homage to the dead president. Still many southerners and some Republicans like Barry Goldwater of Arizona did not vote for it.

The 1964 Civil Rights Act did one other thing it helped change the political demographics of the US. In 1964, a majority of whites in the South voted Democrat. By 1968 the Republican party was getting a hold on white Southerners. Many of these dis-gruntled white Southerners helped to make up President Nixon's "silent majority" in the 68 and 72 elections. Now the South is the stronghold of the Republican party and the Eastern states are now a Democrat stronghold. There were exceptions like Carter and Clinton, but still the demogrpahics have changed. Look at George W. Bush a white Republican from Texas. Look at the red and blue states from the 2004 election. Demogrpahics like that would of been unheard of 40+ years ago.

My family is a good example, they were Democrats and hailed from the South. My grandmother was as hard core Democrat as you could get. Things changed by 1964. Since then my family has voted Republican in every election beginning in 1968. The only exception was 1996 election (Clinton vs Dole) they were split on that.

So the 1964 Civil Rights Act not only gave African Americans a better way of life it helped change the political back drop of this country. So the US Civil War had a long arm.

Well I am done rambling.

Regards,

Jody

Edited June 16, 2005 by JBeltram

[John]

Excellent post. I see things weren't as cut and died as portrayed by many. I wonder what would have happened if the Confederates had won?

Thank you.

John

[Bob Hunter]

There is an old book out there titled If the South had Won the Civil War which I found to be a highly speculative but fun read.

One of the early developments had the south won would have been a fairly empty US treasury and no 7 million dollars to purchase Alaska from Russia. That puts Russia in our backyard for the cold war. Would the south have been as isolationist as the the north? Imagine both countries enter WWI and WWII. or perhaps the north opts out of both, what then?

What if? What if? What if? ad naseum.

[Ralph A]

The Confederate Government considered, in the eventuality of victory, to use the standing armies to invade Mexico and then South America! The idea was to turn the Gulf of Mexico into a western version of the Mediterranean; an agrarian empire based on slave labor. Scary thought.

I wonder what might have happened in Europe 50 or 60 years after the close of the war in question, without the existence of a "united" United States...

Did you know also, that in order to gain recognition from Great Britain, some within the Confederacy entertained the notion of asking the Royal family to send over someone to "rule"?

[Reini]

Abraham Lincoln was a great man and is seen by many as our Greatest President. He did not want to go to war and the thought of all the carnage was very stressful and led in part to the gaunt look one often sees in his photos. He was intent on keeping the United States whole and was willing to do anything to accomplish this.

He also lived in constant fear of assassination and finally was indeed shot dead for his trouble. Other than our Founding Fathers , Lincoln is deserving of more respect than any politician in our history , in my opinion.

Best

Kurt

[Guest paracollector]

This is one of those debates that popular memory does not really match up with history.

Politically, if you cut all the extraneous stuff away, it was a war over State vs Federal Rights (which as far as I'm concerned, the wrong side won). Current popular belief is that it was about slavery (which as far as I'm concered, the right side won). In reality, on the ground, in the individual soldiers head this is pretty much how it really was:

Southerner: I'm tired of some fat Yankee telling me what to do, and to top it off those animals invaded Virginia and are killing good upstanding boys.

Northerner: Who do those Rebs think they are, you just can't quit the country, and to top it off, those animals are attacking our forts and killing good upstanding boys.

The road to this war was a long one, and the real reasons were not as clear cut as simply freeing humans from bondage. Most Americans have been handicapped by the fact that our schools have decided to only teach bits and pieces for brevity's sake (at least that was their stand). Thankfully, many average citizens got interested and started to look around for themselves and learn more about it. These people wrote books that became popular (not always quit correct historywise) that sparked more interest, and more people started to look for themselves, and now today we are finally at a point that those that wish to go beyond the party line taught in school can find out the real how's and why's.

Speaking of the party line, why is it we are taught in school that the Democrats are resposible for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 ? The reality (the Congressional record is out there for anyone who wishes to take the time to read it) is that the Dems spent, what was it again, oh yeah 75 days fillibustering this act, and every one of the Soutnern Dems voted against it.

Hmm, looks like 100 years didn't change much down in Dixie.

John

[Reini]

John,

Many good points.

As the filibuster has reappeared recently , I find it also funny that they will mention that it was used to try an stop Civil Rights Legislation by Strom Thurmond. The part they leave out is that Strom was a Democrat when he did this. Also , they forget to mention that a higher percentage of Republican Senators voted for it than Democrats.

Best

Kurt

[kingtiger]

Politics in America is very hard to understand. When you have the likes of Ted Kennedy and wannabe war "hero" John Kerry in the North and Byrd in the South it makes you wonder where is the Solomon like justice in this country. They all think they do no wrong, yet abuse power like they are royalty and above the law.

There are no strong, honest and dedicated politicians in America today. All are self serving and in closing...what promises are made to get a job that pays $200,000.00 per year and people give you 10's of millions in contributions? They expect to buy you for that money. It is apparent, they do.

Hillary Clinton is a "carpetbagger" that could not get elected to anything in her homestate of Arkansas, so she moves to NY to get the support of the welfare people who like her...big free government giveaways to those who take the most and contribute the least to this country.

The Civil War was much like this current state of affairs, a lot of self serving politicians trying to grab power and control.

In Franklin, TN, near where I live, the bloodiest battle of the Civil War was fought with 5 Confederate Generals killed in 6 hours. you can still find battlefield artifacts in the fields and woods in the South.

Mark

[Tom Y]

I thought the french predated the civil war in the use of baloons for military purposes.

←

The first use of balloons for military purposes by the French was in the Seige of Paris in '70-'71. 66 balloons with a total of 102 passengers were sent out, delivering 2 1/2 million letters to the outside world. They also carried 400 carrier pigeons for return messages. Of these 400 only 8 returned.

2 balloons were lost at sea and 6 captured by the Germans, but the rest landed safely. The last flight was on 28 Jan, 1871, carrying news of the Armistice.