John Jellicoe

[filfoster]

What ribbons is he wearing"

Bio says it should be:

Order of the Bath + Order of Merit+ Victorian Order (Correct precedence here?) + Sea Gallantry medal + Egypt Campaign medal + China medal + George V Coronation medal.

Some portraits of him as a Captain also show a Khedive's Star after the China medal.

[paul wood]

The Khedives star is always worn last ad a foreign award.

P

[filfoster]

Understood. That medal was depicted on a portrait of Jellicoe as a Captain, not this later photo when he was an admiral.  Any help with this particular medal ribbon array?  

A second question: Is the ribbon, worn on a ribbon bar, for the Order of Merit the very wide ribbon?

Edited October 16, 2019 by filfoster

[paul wood]

I very much suspect so

Paul

 

This appears to be his admiral's deck wear ribands 

Paul

 

 

[filfoster]

I can't find a good color portrait of him at this early stage of his career; there are some online of him later on, post war.

I am trying to replicate the ribbon array worn here, in this mid-war photo,  around the time of Jutland (Skaggerak or what have you...).

[filfoster]

RE: Center ribbon bottom row; Is it possible he's still wearing the Prussian Red Eagle ribbon, even at this date?  That would be very strange, yet there is no other medal in his 'inventory' at that time (1916) that would look like this.  Any thoughts?

[filfoster]

Besides being bad form, although a bit cheeky, are there regulations requiring the removal of awards from enemy countries?

[Wessel Gordon]

I'm not an expert by any means on the topic but common sense dictates to me that wearing medals from a country your own country declared war on is, besides the bad form you pointed out, frowned on by the military if not outright illegal.

 

[filfoster]

Exactly!  And yet, look at the evidence here:  There isn't any other ribbon like that, in his awards, that looks like this Red Eagle ribbon,  white with red stripes (can only guess at the colors but the pattern is distinctive) and he's a full admiral, which means it's a wartime photo.  

Can anyone explain this?

[paul wood]

Actually the Chief Australian Army Medical Officer in WW1 had permission to wear his Turkish awards which he had originally received for the Russo-Turkish War 1878-79 as a medical officer with the Turkish army.

Paul

[paul wood]

His name was Hon. Surgeon General Charles Snodgrass Ryan

 Quite a character as well as his exploits in the Russo-Tutkish War he was the police surgeon who dealt with Ned Kelly's wounds (Ryan claimed he was a complete wimp and cry baby with a very low pain threshold). During the great war he visited military hospitals and would throw at ennis ball at the patients, any who caught it were liable to be sent back to the front as fit for duty)

Paul

[Wessel Gordon]

Paul Wood,

Since he had to have permission to wear ''enemy'' awards I take it this is a very isolated example.

 

[paul wood]

Yes I am sure he is. Until WW1 he was the Ottoman Empire's representative in Australia. He also had friends in very high places. The Russo-Turkish war of 1878-79 was widely reported in Britain and the Empire and at the time the Turks were the good guys and the Russians very much to quote Ronnie Regan " the evil empire"  Ryan's autobiography shows his proud he was of his role in the war and his frequently mentioned admiration for the unbelievable courage of the common Turkish soldier: this he wore his Turkish honourz with great pride

 

Paul

[filfoster]

Dr. Snodgrass Ryan's example is interesting but may not explain Admiral Jellicoe's ribbons in the picture. I don't have any references to show when he was awarded many of his campaign medals and decorations and honors, except the wobbly Wikipedia. Like many senior officers, especially Royal Navy officers, he had some contact with officers of the Kaiserliche Marine, including, once, the Kaiser himself. Many such officers were awarded various degrees of the Red Eagle but it's not likely they continued to wear them after hostilities began. 

I can't explain the center, lower range ribbon.  Can anyone identify it? 

According to the Wikipedia, my proposed ribbon bar above is what he should have been wearing. 

[filfoster]

It's possible that Jellicoe is wearing the Red Eagle ribbon. Consider that Robert Massie, in his book, "Castles of Steel" mentions Admiral Cradock using ink to deface a Prussian ribbon rather than removing it, owing to the perceived difficulty. (Did he not have a batman of some sort?). After all, Jellicoe had a great deal to think about besides a particular ribbon on his 'monkey jacket'. 

[filfoster]

I keep thumping this tub in hope that someone knowledgeable about Jellicoe can explain these ribbons. The top row may be #1: Victorian Order #2: Order of Merit, which would be in the wrong sequence: the Victorian Order came after the Order of Merit in precedence;

 The bottom row is a complete mystery as it doesn't appear to include at the left or right hand either of his campaign ribbons, for Egypt (two white stripes on blue) or China (red with gold edge stripes), and of course, the weird Prussian Red Eagle ribbon in the center. 

Any help here, please?

[filfoster]

OK, I see at the time of Jutland, he had not yet been given the Order of Merit so here is a possible explanation:

top row:  Victorian Order / Order of the Bath-should be reversed?/Egypt -see the stripes? bottom row: China / Red Eagle / Khedive Star (Looks very light in photo but what else could it be?)

 

What say the experts?

Edited October 27, 2019 by filfoster

[filfoster]

Is there any circumstance for wearing the Victorian Order in precedence to the Order of the Bath? For example, relative to higher grade of the respective orders?  Won't work here: he was Knight Grand Cross of the Bath in 1915 but Knight Commander of the Victorian Order, 1907.

He should have worn the Bath ribbon before the Victorian Order ribbon. There isn't anything that he had, that would properly come between the KCVO and the Egypt campaign medal. So what is that middle ribbon if not an improperly placed Order of the Bath?  A ribbon for the Order of St. John would be possible, but I can find no record that he ever received that.

And, of course, it sits above the Prussian Red Eagle Order ribbon he ought to have removed!

Am I the only one who's fascinated by the weirdness of all this on the uniform of one of the larger actors onstage in the Great War?

Edited October 27, 2019 by filfoster

[filfoster]

The Sea Gallantry medal might be placed after the Victorian Order but the photos don't show any stripes at all on the top row, number two place ribbon.

[filfoster]

Another clue:  

The top center ribbon is noticeably wider than the other ribbons, which suggests it's a mis-placed Order of the Bath ribbon.

Can anyone explain why it would not be in the proper order?  Surely his tailor or batman would have known better.

Edited October 29, 2019 by filfoster

[filfoster]

This jacket still exists in the UK National Maritime Museum collections. I have sent them an inquiry. The jacket today includes ribbons affixed after Jutland, but the color photos clearly show a Prussian Red Eagle ribbon, so that mystery is solved. Why he didn't remove it is still a conundrum.

I will share any response I may receive from the museum.

[paul wood]

Maybe the reason for the award was such that he felt that if was well deseved and above disputes. Presumably he must have got permission to wear via the top brass.

P

[JapanX]

[filfoster]

JapanX:  Yes, this is the same jacket.  The Red Eagle ribbon is still there, 2nd row, far right. The top row has the Bath ribbon now preceding the Victorian Order.  We just need someone to confirm that these two ribbons were reversed (an error by Jellicoe, his tailor or his valet) in the first photo above. 

I have sent an email enquiry to the UK National Maritime Museum to see if they know anything about the ribbons in their earlier configuration but so far, no response. If any forum members know anyone there, perhaps you might put in a word?

Edited November 4, 2019 by filfoster

[filfoster]

My default opinion on Jellicoe's ribbons at this moment is that in the photos taken of him after his promotion to full admiral in August, 1914, his uniform has:

top row:  Victorian Order  + Order of the Bath (mis-placed)  + Egypt campaign

2nd row: 3rd China War + Prussian Red Eagle  + Khedive Star

These ribbons represent several very odd and interesting circumstances.

1. The transposition of the VO and OB ribbons

2. The inclusion of the Prussian Red Eagle ribbon, albeit a relatively high -2nd Class with swords- valor award, of a belligerent nation

3. The absence of the Sea Gallantry medal ribbon, which is a rather rare and prestigious medal. This jacket, in the collection of the UK National Maritime Museum still excludes this ribbon.

4. The inclusion of a Khedive Star ribbon, which is not insignificant but not rare, nor likely to get him free drinks at the bar.

It's unlikely anyone at this date knows why these ribbons were worn in this order. I'm not giving up hope but even if the UK National Maritime Museum responds (unlikely), it's a stretch to imagine their expertise can explain this.

Edited November 6, 2019 by filfoster