Victorian/ww1 miniature medal bar – opinions and ideas for identification?

[drspeck]

Dear all,

 

This part of GMIC is new to me, so please be gentle with me ? I’d like to show you my first British piece I recently picked up at auction, and came in today. It is a nice unnamed miniature medal bar. Although my main interest is German ribbon bars, I do also have pieces from other countries, mainly mainland Europe. As an addition, I have been looking for a nice British miniature medal bar for some time now.  I have a bit of a soft spot for the Victorian period so I looked for a piece with at least something from that period, and that’s how I bumped into this piece. Also, the gold 1887 jubilee medal with gold 1897 clasp makes me think this might be royal family, which was also a reason for me to go for this piece. Heavy wear on the back.

 

It looks time period to me but my experience with British pieces is limited so would also like to hear from others. Also, based on the 1887 medal and 1897 clasp, might this be identifiable?

 

Best, Peter

[paul wood]

Interesting. Certainly awarded to nobility with gold 1887 Jubilee with 97 clasp.  6 clasp QSA Victorian Order And Michael and George must be some one intetesting. Nice group.

p

[drspeck]

21 hours ago, paul wood said:

Interesting. Certainly awarded to nobility with gold 1887 Jubilee with 97 clasp.  6 clasp QSA Victorian Order And Michael and George must be some one intetesting. Nice group.

p

Dear all,

I've been looking at the lists of the recipients of the Royal Victorian order on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Victorian_Order) and I can find only 3 possible matches, 3 princes. Do we know if these lists on Wikipedia are complete?

Also, is there anywhere, a source and/or a website, where I can get the 6 clasp QSA checked out? Is for example the angloboerwar.com website a place to post this bar?

Best, Peter

 

[paul wood]

I doubt it. I think the solution lies on who received the gold 1887 with 97 clssp. obviously the entire British Royal Family alive in 87 and 97 and several European Heads of state receved it so they can be ruled out. Add in the RVO that narrows it down and the St Michael and George would suggest they hrld a senior dilomstic post or a governor generalship. If he was still alive in 1932 then I will be able to identify him as I have a book in the office issued for the centenary of the order of leopold which lists all living recipients including non-belgian. If he is not there then at least we know he popped his clogs prior to then.

p

 

 

[drspeck]

2 hours ago, paul wood said:

I doubt it. I think the solution lies on who received the gold 1887 with 97 clssp. obviously the entire British Royal Family alive in 87 and 97 and several European Heads of state receved it so they can be ruled out. Add in the RVO that narrows it down and the St Michael and George would suggest they hrld a senior dilomstic post or a governor generalship. If he was still alive in 1932 then I will be able to identify him as I have a book in the office issued for the centenary of the order of leopold which lists all living recipients including non-belgian. If he is not there then at least we know he popped his clogs prior to then.

p

 

 

Paul, if you have the opportunity, please do check for the order of Leopold. In the meantime, I'll go through the list of royal guests at the golden jubilee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Jubilee_of_Queen_Victoria).

Thanks, Peter

[Gordon Craig]

drspeck,

Another avenue might be searching for regiments.  I once found a list of regiments and the typical clasps awarded to it on the Queens Boar War medal.  This is not fool proof of course as everyone in the regiment did not receive identical clasps.  I have searched for it again but have been unable to locate it.  Good luck in your search.

Regards,

Gordon

 

[paul wood]

Petet when I hit the ranch on monday I will try and grab said tome.

p

[paul wood]

died prior to 1932 found a couple of near misses but not the man.

P

[drspeck]

3 hours ago, paul wood said:

died prior to 1932 found a couple of near misses but not the man.

P

Paul, thanks for checking I will assume a date of death prio to 1932.

[laurentius]

On 03/10/2020 at 16:24, drspeck said:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Jubilee_of_Queen_Victoria).

I find it rather peculiar that Charles Edward, Duke of Albany (later Carl Eduard, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha) isn't mentioned in the guestlist (his mother is, his father had passed away before the jubilee). Claudio owns one of his ribbonbars so we know he did atleast receive it. This may show us that the list is incomplete, although I must say that for a Wikipedia-article the document is well-written and has proper links to the many noble attandees, which is usually problematic given the tendency to have several princes at different times with the same names (thank God Prince Heinrich XXXIII of Reuß wasn't on the guestlist ?).

It's a lovely miniature bar, and I hope we find the owner.

Kind regards, Laurentius

[drspeck]

18 minutes ago, laurentius said:

I find it rather peculiar that Charles Edward, Duke of Albany (later Carl Eduard, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha) isn't mentioned in the guestlist (his mother is, his father had passed away before the jubilee). Claudio owns one of his ribbonbars so we know he did atleast receive it. This may show us that the list is incomplete, although I must say that for a Wikipedia-article the document is well-written and has proper links to the many noble attandees, which is usually problematic given the tendency to have several princes at different times with the same names (thank God Prince Heinrich XXXIII of Reuß wasn't on the guestlist ?).

It's a lovely miniature bar, and I hope we find the owner.

Kind regards, Laurentius

Laurentius, thank you for your comments. It's a very good observation. It means a possible candidate must be a very strong match.

Talking about candidates, in the past few days I have been searching for possible candidates. I checked all the male participants of the British Royal Family who were present as Royal Guests at the Jubilee celebration of 1887 (wiki), that is the ones that are mentioned ?. Next I did a cross reference with the recipients of the Royal Victorian Order (wiki), that is the ones that can be found via the lists on wikipedia ?. I filtered out all persons with 1) different orders and medal and 2) with dates of death prior to around 1917/1918 (because of the ww1 medals) or after 1932 (because of the check by Paul on the Order of Leopold).

Based on the available information I can find only one name: Prince Adolphus, Duke of Teck (wiki)

He makes for a compelling candidate:
- Photos picture him with the Order of St Michael and St George, the QSA with 6 clasps and the jubilee medal with 1897 clasp. Recipient of the Royal Victorian Order.
- Military attache at the British embassy in Vienna, which could explain the Order of St Michael and St George.
- His wikipedia page states he received the Belgian Order of Leopold, French Croix de Guerre and French Legion of Honneur
- Died 1927

Would be awesome if based on this name the QSA clasps could be matched (or not ?, which would mean I have to start over ?). Are there QSA sources where a name can be checked and/or does someone has access to such a source?

Best, Peter

[paul wood]

peter I thought of adolphus of Teck but i thought he also had a gcb.

paul

[drspeck]

19 hours ago, paul wood said:

peter I thought of adolphus of Teck but i thought he also had a gcb.

paul

Paul, you are right.

His wiki page states his GCB was a Knight Grand Cross. I am not familiar with the rules in the UK concerning how orders can be worn, but would he have been allowed to wear his Grand Cross as a (miniature) medal?

By the way, this is a cropped pre-ww1 image of him (looks just before ww1) with all his orders up to that point.

Best, Peter

Edited October 6, 2020 by drspeck

[paul wood]

yes would have worn a mini bath also his romanian award although not his german or austrian we are looking at someone of royal lineage who popped his clogs in the 20s i wonder if any of the fitzclarences (william ivs bastard brood) could fit the bill.

p

[drspeck]

45 minutes ago, paul wood said:

yes would have worn a mini bath also his romanian award although not his german or austrian we are looking at someone of royal lineage who popped his clogs in the 20s i wonder if any of the fitzclarences (william ivs bastard brood) could fit the bill.

p

With German ribbon bars, you see personal prefences play a role in what is displayed or not. Does that also happen in British bars?

The only Fitzclarence who could qualify is Aubrey FitzClarence, 4th Earl of Munster (1862–1928), but he held the office of Gentleman Usher-in-Ordinary to Queen Victoria from 1885 to 1901 and to King Edward VII from 23 July 1901 until 7 February 1902, so at least no QSA, but also no other mention of awards.

[paul wood]

He would not drop the bath as that was his top dog.

p

[Marcon1]

Forget royalty, look for a high ranking military officer.

Anglo-Boer war with 6 clasps.

World War 1 trio and also french/belgian (?) war cross.

[drspeck]

Gentlemen,

I bear good news, I have found our man, and it was in the end thanks to the QSA.

Some days ago I reached out to David Biggins, the owner of the Anglo Boer War forum. He was not only kindly enough to reply to my email but also send me the original listing of the auction of the full sized medal bar of Adolphus of Teck - please see attached. The listing gives the exact 6 QSA clasps which are also on the miniature medal bar. My first thought was, what are the odds of finding someone else, my second thought was, if there is a listing of the full sized medal bar, maybe somewhere in the recesses of the internet there may also be a past auction listing of the miniature medal bar to Adolphus... and that's what I found - please see the other attachment. Listing 801, catalogue no. 36, as sold by Morton and Eden in 2008. The original catalogue can be found on the Morton and Eden website under 'past auctions'.

This off course still leaves us with the question, where is the Order of the Bath?

Best, Peter