Hannover Royal Guelphic Order and unidentified neck cross - early photograph

[ArHo]

Hi all,

I recently got this nice early photographic portrait of an elderly gentleman, still in its original frame. I would date it to around 1860, maybe a little later.

Unfortunately no provenance was given other than northeastern Lower Saxony (= Niedersachsen), there is also no writing etc. on it and I won't open the frame to have a look...

The gentleman wears his nicely colorized knight's cross of the Royal Guelphic Order and a neck cross that I could not identify until now. I suspect a papal order?

Well, I would be very grateful for and glad about any help in identifying the latter order so that I may perhaps be able to track the name of its proud wearer.

Cheers

ArHo

[David M]

Maybe the hohenlohe house order of the phoenix?

[paul wood]

I think that is quite likely David.

Paul

[ArHo]

Thanks for your input @David M + @paul wood, the Hohenlohe Order seemed likely to me first, too, especially regarding the blue part of the central medallion, but upon closer examination I am not so sure anymore.

I made a better picture so you will notice that the outer sides of the cross arms are definitely straight while with the Hohenlohe Order they are bent inwards. This order is also not mentioned in the Hanoverian Hof- und Staatshandbuch around 1860, likely because it was very rarely awarded and no Hanoverian official got it?! So I am afraid this is not the answer. Well, the search goes on.

Also I am curious of the golden "Ball" (marked by the arrow) that seems to be moveable and "hold" the ribbon together. Has anyone come across something like this on other orders before?

Cheers

ArHo

Edited December 25, 2020 by ArHo

[David M]

Saw it before but cannpt recall where. Cant it be for a domkapitualr cross? Or the Limburg order?

You could also take the 1860s STB and just look up images of the foreign (i.e. non hanoverian) orders mentioned 

[David M]

Cant it not simply be a GHVP2b?

[ArHo]

44 minutes ago, David M said:

Cant it not simply be a GHVP2b?

@David M wow, I think you may really have hit it - Order of Philip the Magnanimous with a little colorizing-mistake in ribbon color (yellow instead of blue rim stripes) and an perhaps privately added (?) "pearl" to keep the cross from falling of the ribbon (just a possible explanation). Thank you, sir! 

Edited December 26, 2020 by ArHo

[David M]

Curious to know who could be on the photo with this combination

From what I can see in the lists on the HG3 in the hannoverian STB's he cannot be a HD native, because there are hardly any awards of the HG to hessians.

Nor is there are hanoverian native in the list of the GHVP2b in 1866.

1851 there was a kaiserl. Russ. Staatsrath Dr Auvert who got a HG3 and a GHVP2b in the same year

Edited December 26, 2020 by David M

[BlackcowboyBS]

Wow, great photo ArHo! I'll will see, if I can get some more information for you on this one. I'll post it here, as soon as I got interesting news. 

 

David, I doubt the russian, as he wears no russian order at all, but let's see, if I can dig out something.

[David M]

Dont think he is russian either. This was just one if the few I could find in the STBs of both states being decorated the same year with both orders shown.

Interesting to see if you go through these lists that Hannover and HD did not decorate each others nationals hardly at all

Edited December 28, 2020 by David M

[BlackcowboyBS]

Hey Arho, as promised I tried in to dig a little bit deeper. The dress that this elder gentleman wears is the possible key into the right direction. The frock coat looks like a lutherian frock coat, so it is the equivalent to the military pol rock but used by protestant pastors. The guelphic knights cross was the typical class which was awarded to Oberkonsistorialräte and Konsistorialräte. One of these 6 persons that you can find in the Hannoverian Hof und Staatshandbuch was also the abbot of Bursfelde, so this might be the cross around his neck. 

If you compare the neck cross with the hessian Order of Phillip you should find a crown and nothing between the arms of the cross. But on your photo I do see no crown but there seems to be something between the arms of the cross. 

 

If I find out more, I will let you know.