5x Württemberg bar with Schwarzburg and a mystery ribbon

[landsknechte]

I just picked up this ribbon bar today, and the middle ribbon has me completely stumped.  Anyone recognize it?

 

Also, anyone familiar enough with Schwarzburg to venture a guess as to which of their decorations would be represented by [very tarnished] silver swords on an enlisted bar?

 

 

 

[91-old-inf-reg]

Hello, great ribbon bar! The unknown award is Mecklenburg-Schwerin Verdienstmedaille in Silber Friedrich Franz II.

 

As for the Schwarzburg award, I’m going to have to have to conclude that it’s the Ehrenkreuz 4 klasse mit schwertern 

 

best regards,

Dan

[saschaw]

I agree the central ribbon fits the Verdienstmedaille of the Grand Duchy of Mecklenburg-Schwerin best, but it could represent either a medal in silver or one in bronze. Uwe Bretzendorfer, in his 1997 "Annahme genehmigt! Nachweis der Verleihung nichtwürttembergischer Orden/Ehrenzeichen an württembergische Militärs 1870 - 1914" (p. 64-68) lists only seven(!) EM and NCOs from Württemberg that received such a medal... however, there were possibly some more that remained unpublished.

 

The Schwarzburg ribbon could very well just represent their common Silberne Ehrenmedaille für Verdienst im Kriege. Some thirty of these are known to have been awarded to soldiers from Württemberg, according to Daniel Krause's 2008 "Verleihungen von nicht- württembergischen Auszeichnungen an Angehörige der Königlich Württembergischen Armee im Ersten Weltkrieg 1914 - 1918", whereas no 4th class cross is mentioned. Again, unpublished awards are possible here as well, of course. However, it's not too unusual to find swords on a war merit or bravery medal's ribbon... I'd certainly go with the Schwarzburg medal!

 

 

[landsknechte]

Is there any obvious commonality among those seven that you can see?  (e.g. all members of a specific unit that had some sort of a connection, etc.)

[saschaw]

7 hours ago, landsknechte said:

Is there any obvious commonality among those seven that you can see?  (e.g. all members of a specific unit that had some sort of a connection, etc.)

Unfortunately not, there's no clear pattern: It's each two or three from Grenadier-Regiment „Königin Olga“ (1. Württembergisches) Nr. 119, Dragoner-Regiment „König“ (2. württembergisches) Nr. 26 and the Schloßgarde-Kompanie. All six silver medals were awarded the same day in January 1912, so they were certainly connected to some visit from or in Mecklenburg-Schwerin.

 

I had a closer look, but none of these men come up as apparent suspects: Most had either many other awards, or no (known) additional foreign ones at all...

 

 

[Dave Danner]

There are no known awards of the SEK4X to Württembergers.

 

[saschaw]

Thanks for your confirmation, Dave! I'm glad to see Daniel's list is still good to work with!

 

On 16/07/2022 at 16:01, saschaw said:

However, it's not too unusual to find swords on (...) bravery medal's ribbon...

And sometimes even on a medal bar, like this one, auctioned by eMedals just yesterday...

 

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by saschaw

[Dave Danner]

By princely decree dated 1 January 1916, silver swords were authorized for awards of the Silberne Medaille für Verdienst im Kriege when awarded on the ribbon of the Ehrenkreuz for merit "vor dem Feinde". For war merit in the Etappe or Besatzungstruppen, the medal was awarded on the blue ribbon without swords.

 

Gilt swords were authorized for the ribbon of the Ehrenkreuz.

 

[saschaw]

On 19/07/2022 at 12:56, Dave Danner said:

By princely decree dated 1 January 1916, silver swords were authorized for awards of the Silberne Medaille für Verdienst im Kriege when awarded on the ribbon of the Ehrenkreuz for merit "vor dem Feinde".

Thanks, Dave, this is most interesting! Henning Volle, in his 2014 Stiftungen und Erneuerungen von deutschen Orden und Ehrenzeichen im Ersten Weltkrieg, p. 129/130, quotes or paraphrases said princely decree, but he does not mention the swords. So, I'm hearing for the first time they were a "real thing" in the Schwarzburg principalities! Again, thanks for this addition!

 

[Dave Danner]

Here is an excerpt from the decree, as printed in the Bavarian Militär-Verordnungsblatt. The version in the Prussian Armee-Verordnungsblatt is the same, but I don't have a clean copy.

 

[saschaw]

Just to be clear, I didn't doubt you! Though, thank you so much for this proper source!

 

[Dave Danner]

It's actually pretty fortuitous that I went back to look at the statutes. I came across something that I either missed or forgot about, which is that if you received a Kriegsauszeichnung you had to remove a previous peacetime award, but if you received a later, higher class of the Ehrenkreuz, either a Kriegsauszeichnung or a Friedensauszeichnung, you could keep both. This also applied to the medal.

 

Thus, for example, Fritz von Selle and Friedrich-Karl von Witzleben could wear both the SEK1X and the SEK2X, and Franz Ohrtmann could wear both his SEK2E and his SEK3X. There were also three recipients of both the SEK3X and SEK4X, and at least 3 dozen recipients of both the SEK3X and the Silberne Medaille für Verdienst im Kriege (SKM). Also, two recipients of both the SEK4X and the SKM.

 

However, while the statute said you could have both, several of the files I reviewed in Rudolstadt have notations to the effect that an award of the Ehrenkreuz was "an Stelle" the earlier awarded SKM. I am not sure about actual practice. For example, Karl Ogilvie's HPA Personalakte lists both his SEK3X and SKM, but there's no photo with a ribbon bar to see if he actually wore double Ehrenkreuz ribbons. I think there's a GMIC thread with a ribbon bar with double Ehrenkreuz ribbons, but I can't remember if any conclusions were drawn. I suppose a ribbon bar with gilt swords on one and silver swords on the other might indicate a SEK3X/SKM pair.

 

I must admit I am unclear if how ablegen is used here means you could keep both decorations or you could wear both decorations.

 

[webr55]

Just looking at the text, I would take "nicht abzulegen" to mean you could indeed WEAR both of them. In the sense of "you can keep them both on your bar, you don't have to take them off it".