Odd combination of WW2 medals.

[Duncan]

Hello, I noticed this odd combination of WW2 medals for sale. Both sets are mounted and doesn't look like they were recently mounted. Was it feasible to earn these combination of medals without also being awarded at least the 1939-1945 War Medal too?

[bigjarofwasps]

Interesting, but I would say not.
 

Having said that mind, I have seen campaign star groups with both the war and defence medals, but with no 39-45 star. Not sure how that works? 

[Zulu_00]

Different theatre stars had different rules. Theoretically, for example, someone could have done 3 years in the ARP or Home Guard in the UK to get the Defence Medal, then one day in Burma to get the Burma Star. Not sure about the Italy Star's criteria but it is plausible that this could be the case. Potentially a civilian entertainer with the forces?

7 minutes ago, Zulu_00 said:

Different theatre stars had different rules. Theoretically, for example, someone could have done 3 years in the ARP or Home Guard in the UK to get the Defence Medal, then one day in Burma to get the Burma Star. Not sure about the Italy Star's criteria but it is plausible that this could be the case. Potentially a civilian entertainer with the forces?

Checked it out and the Italy Star (for army, naval shore based and RAF non aircrew) just required entry into the theatre. These are unusual pairs, but far from impossible. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy_Star

[bigjarofwasps]

Interesting!!

 

WW2 medals are a mine field!!

[Duncan]

On 23/11/2022 at 08:40, bigjarofwasps said:

Interesting, but I would say not.
 

Having said that mind, I have seen campaign star groups with both the war and defence medals, but with no 39-45 star. Not sure how that works? 

 

One from my collection. Someone on this forum said it was typical of a late entry into the theatre of war; last few months but less that 6 months so didn't quality for the 1939-1945 Star.

Thanks for the replies everyone. Spent some time looking at the award criteria for the various stars and medals and got totally confused. As I read it, can't see that the 1939-1945 Star and Defence Medal would be legitimate, but possibly the Defence Medal and Italy Star might be OK, like was said may be a civilian in some sort of capacity. Or may be just random medals put together for no particular reason!

[ChrisKelly]

One thought...  According to regulations from May 1945, anyone awarded one of the campaign stars always gets a 1939-1945 War Medal, regardless of position or capacity, even if the minimum 28 days' service requirement for the 1939-1945 War Medal has not been met. There were also amended regulations from July 1946, and this did not change.

 

There were no exceptions made to the award of the 1939-1945 Star, other than the "special awards" such as the Battle of Britain or the Dieppe Commando Raid.  Aircrew required 60 days operational service (60 days flying), soldiers required 180 days anywhere outside the U.K., and seamen/sailors required 180 days at sea.

 

All the campaign stars, except the Air Crew Europe Star, were awarded for one day operational service, only during the last six months (10 November 1944 - 8 May 1945 in the European Theater, 3 March 1945 - 2 September 1945 in the Asiatic - Pacific Theater).  Only one star, the last qualifying theater of operations, was awarded.  Earning the 1939-1945 Star first was not required during the last six months.

 

LtCol Colin Campbell Mitchell, the Argyll of "Mad Mitch" fame, landed in Italy as a replacement officer sometime in March 1945.  War ended five weeks later.  Italy Star and 1939 - 1945 War Medal awarded.  His Defence Medal was granted for three years' service in the Home Guard in the U.K., when he was a student, before he went into the army.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Mitchell

Edited June 11 by ChrisKelly

[SillyOldGrandad]

1 hour ago, ChrisKelly said:

One thought...  According to regulations from May 1945, anyone awarded one of the campaign stars always gets a 1939-1945 War Medal, regardless of position or capacity, even if the minimum 28 days' service requirement for the 1939-1945 War Medal has not been met. There were also amended regulations from July 1946, and this did not change.

 

There were no exceptions made to the award of the 1939-1945 Star, other than the "special awards" such as the Battle of Britain or the Dieppe Commando Raid.  Aircrew required 60 days operational service (60 days flying), soldiers required 180 days anywhere outside the U.K., and seamen/sailors required 180 days at sea.

 

All the campaign stars, except the Air Crew Europe Star, were awarded for one day operational service, only during the last six months (10 November 1944 - 8 May 1945 in the European Theater, 3 March 1945 - 2 September 1945 in the Asiatic - Pacific Theater).  Only one star, the last qualifying theater of operations, was awarded.  Earning the 1939-1945 Star first was not required during the last six months.

 

LtCol Colin Campbell Mitchell, the Argyll of "Mad Mitch" fame, landed in Italy as a replacement officer sometime in March 1945.  War ended five weeks later.  Italy Star and 1939 - 1945 War Medal awarded.  His Defence Medal was granted for three years' service in the Home Guard in the U.K., when he was a student, before he went into the army.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Mitchell

My blunder.

 

 

 

Edited June 11 by SillyOldGrandad
Blunder.

[ChrisKelly]

No blunder.  No problem.

 

Let's examine these medal groups.

 

Post#1:

 

Duncan... 

 

The first medal group is not possible. It's missing the War Medal 1939 - 1945.  Someone mounted these two groups after the war.  After all, these medals were issued, at the earliest, 1946 - 1947.  Likely a collector, enthusiast or tailor.

 

The second group is highly unlikely.  It's missing the War Medal 1939 - 1945.  However...  Someone might have been, say, in the Home Guard, which explains the Defence Medal, and somehow received a "special award" of the 1939 - 1945 Star for less than 180 days' operational service.

 

Post#5

 

A well - worn group likely to a soldier on active service, a late - comer to the Forces who squeezed into Northwest Europe in 1945.  Monty needed replacements badly by January 1945, to assault the Reichswald and eventually cross the Rhine.  The 1939 - 1945 Star is missing likely because the recipient did not have 180 days' operational service.  The Defence Medal may be present because the recipient is ex - Home Guard.

 

All the medals look genuine period pieces, as are the pin brooches and the ribbons. The Defence and War Medals are likely British issue, as the Canadian Defencd and War medals were struck in 80% silver, and no Australia, New Zealand, South Africa or Rhodesia War Medal(s) are present.  Those Commonwealth nations, including India, issued the cupro - nickel Defence and War Medals.  They're in great condition for mounted medals, with the exception of the ribbons in the third group.

 

[Farkas]

Hi Gents,

 

Do you think the use of ‘full time personnel’ is to the exclusion of all others?

 

I would read the above as such.

 

Other awards do not state that requirement. Others do state “operational” or “non operational” but only the war medal states ‘full time personnel’.

It’s an eye opener if so.

 

If I saw a loose defence medal with a star/stars I would assume the war medal has gone ‘walkies’, I’ve never assumed it was not issued.

 

I wish that we could check medal rolls for ww2 almost as much as I wish they were named…

 

tony 🍻