medal bar opinions please

[HeikoGrusdat]

Hello gentlemen,

here is my weekly medal bar question...

today I want to show you a nice medal bar, unfortunately a bit damaged but still very nice to me!!!

I want to learn a bit more about the greek order today, which time period, to whom awarded and so on.... every information is helpfull

maybe there is a guess about the rank of the owner possible - I know you are in good mood this weekend

thanks for your help

Heiko

[HeikoGrusdat]

and the reverse...

[HeikoGrusdat]

great enamel artwork!!!

[Paul R]

That is a beautiful medal! I have never seen a medal with the likeness of Christ before! I too would love to know more about it!

PAul

[HeikoGrusdat]

it is the greek order of the redemeer (in german "Erl?serorden") - but that?s all I know...

[Stogieman]

He's probably wearing a Crown Order 2 around his neck..

[joe campbell]

heiko-

this is a wonderful bar! (wunderbar???)

is the crown on the RAO enamelled? i know little

about the crowns. what do they represent?

with the wilhelm centennial and the china KDM,

no EK and an officers long service mean 1890's-

1900's?

thanks! from one still early on the learning curve!

joe

[Guest Rick Research]

Uh oh... get out your hankies!

Rudolf SCHWARZ

born 7 April 1876

Imperial Navy 4 April 1893-19 April 1918

Lt zS

Oberlt zS

Kapit?nleutnant zur See 21.3.05.

Korvettenkapit?n zur See 10.4.11 H

charakterisiert Fregattenkapit?n zur See 13.1.17.

CHINA as Oberlt zS on light cruiser S.M.S. "Schwalbe"

1905 Instructor on school ship S.M.S. "Undine" no awards listed

1908 Artillery Officer, S.M.S. "Scharnhorst" with Red Eagle 4

1910 Commander of I./I. Werftdivision (seniority list so don't know awards status)

MAY 1914 1st Officer, S.M.S. "Seydlitz," with Red Eagle 4 with Crown and Greek Order of the Redeemer "Gold Cross" (Knight 1st Class)

(how he would have gotten the Baden 1902 Jubilee Medal is a mystery to me-- an "official navy delegation guest" member???)

Wartime: 1st Officer of S.M.S. "Seydlitz" to August 1914

and then something bad happened

For the rest of the war, Artillery Officer and Vorstand of the artillery and mines depot, Friedrichsort until

retired 19 April 1918

something worse had obviously happened

He is shown in the February 1918 Navy Rank List with--

an Iron Cross 2nd Class on "combatant" ribbon-- almost certainly the weird "third type" "black-white" NONcombatant version ...

and

... the XXV Years Service Cross-- suspended for ar's duration, and to have BEEN in this Liste, had to have been awarded in JUNE 1914 for his doubled outside German waters sea time.

So this medal bar dates, literally, to the month before World War One started, one month AFTER the last peacetime Rank List came out.

His wife is listed in the MOV Directories of 1928 and 1931 as "married" and living at Zierkerstra?e 55, Neustrelitz. HE is NOT shown as a member. SHE is NOT listed as "widowed." HE is NOT shown as "deceased" in the Navy Honor Rank List.

He MUST have been completely physically incapacitated, certainly by April 1918, possibly seriously enough to have been removed from active sea command duty in August 1914--

and was lingering, still technically "alive" in 1931, but unable to function.

Frau Schwarz was not listed in the 1935 MOV directory-- so I can only assume that he actually DIED during the interval between the two directories being published.

SOMETHING bad happened!

[Stogieman]

It's a shame that RAO has been damaged and the ribbon of the GOR is as well. A rather interesting bar and nice pinpointing of the ID Rick!

[HeikoGrusdat]

Hi Joe,

especially for you here is the crown...

[HeikoGrusdat]

Woouuuwwww.... as always Mr.Research himself fascinates me!!! Thank you very much for the information... I had this bar for many years, once purchased from Tony Colson, and never thought about an ID with this combination... I wanted to get more info on the rank and the order and now I have a name - Thank you!!!

As a little gift for the community here is another greek redemeer on another medal bar, better enamel work, and to make it very interesting ..... together with a turkish Medjidie ENJOY!!!

[HeikoGrusdat]

reverse

[HeikoGrusdat]

and the detail...

[Guest Rick Research]

It looks to me like the Schwarz bar's Redeemer ribbon has simply "given up the ghost" and come apart from age. I had a Hamburg Hanseatic Cross do the same thing-- fine for decades and then... all fallen apart.

[joe campbell]

many thanks, heiko!

and to the ever-researchin' rick research!

joe

[Guest Rick Research]

But then there is the "rest of the story" which we will almost certainly never know, now.

What happened to a promising, well-decorated naval officer, a "Number One" poised to take senior ship command...

relegated to shore depot "for the duration" and THEN... discharged when the war was still going on, and every geriatric retiree and cripple who could fill a desk was being kept on active duty?

It wasn't incompetence-- he'd have simply been cashiered. (Happened to more than one peacetime parade martinet I've encountered in the army over the years.)

If he came down with some illness then untreatable, severe enough to be taken off frontline duty in August 1914, and that retired him less than 4 years later,

what on EARTH kind of medical condition would have kept this man "alive" for at least another 13 years--

and yet unable even to answer mail or function at a nominal level?

His WIFE, after all, was the member of the MOV-- and NOT him. He couldn't even scrawl his name on a card for the dues.

It wasn't BLINDNESS-- he would have FUNCTIONED with that.

What horrible, lingering fate befell Commander Schwarz?????

Oh yes, just pretty glitteries "worth" X National Currency Units, "investors" would say.

To me...

it's the original owner's life--- known and unknowable.

What say you, Doctor Joe? What could take 17 or so years to kill, yet leave someone alive but completely non compos mentis for most of that period? Alzheimers onset... at 38 (1914)??????

[joe campbell]

rick-

an interesting question....

some background to put it in some perspective.

the very first thing that doesn't pop into mind is alzheimers.

why?

it is a disease of longevity. the incidence(frequency) of

alzheimers has become much more common - to epidemic proportions -

as the population ages. this is RARELY a disease of 40-50 year olds.

it affects 60-70-80's. there are a LOT more of them these days.

which brings me to my second point.

while i don't have the statistics in front of me, my guess is that life

expectancy in the 1910's was late forties/early fifties. recently, in the

US of A, it reached 78+ years.

why?

NOT the wonder drugs, although they are good. (antibiotics and

vaccines are the exceptions)

refrigeration.

running water.

septic systems.

antibiotics and vaccines, as above.

there are a few others i'm forgetting, but you get the point.

so a late thirties-early fifties age-range guy could actually be approaching worn out....

my guess?

he had a stroke or cerebral aneurysm which didn't kill him,

but left him physically functional with the IQ of a cucumber.

while these are often not lethal, they act as an accelerant to

the usual processes which kill 70-80 year olds now. he lost

further function and died of an aspiration pneumonia. who knows?

a picture may give some physical clue, but alas, Herr Ricky,

will will probably never know...

you DO however, have a MULTITUDE of plausible explanations

for this gentleman being pulled off the line.

hope this helps.

doktor joe

[gregM]

My guess would be Miliaria or TB.

BTW the second medal bar is beautifull

Thanks for sharing them and the history. Rick you amaze me sometimes.

[Ed_Haynes]

A plausible, powerful, and evocative historical diagnosis, Joe. And the usual patented Rick restoration of history to these "things".

Good job, all!

Some of these tales really do bring out the human reality that is what we really study here.

Speaking for myself, I'd leave the ribbons untouched. They were original and are part of the history of the group. But, then, I'm a bit of a purist about issues of phaleristic "history"; in evidence:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2400&st=1

[HeikoGrusdat]

Thanks for all this great information Rick... his story sounds a bit like the one of Hauptmann aD Sievert that Paul and I were working on last days... AR1X in 1915 and then back home to mum - sudden end of careers...

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Thank you Heiko, an uncle of mine, Otto von Etzel won the Greek Order of Redeemer Commander, and now I know what they look like close up!

[joe campbell]

greg-

reasonable suppositions.

malaria less likely, although he may have had it.

its latency from contraction to symptoms is weeks/

months rather than years, and its course would be

atypical for this gentleman's time frame. he

certainly may have had the exposure, and had it,

but not likely to kill him.

TB is more of a possibility. TB and syphilus are

the great pretenders. they can mimic almost

anything. while possible, i defer to the old medical

saw "most people have what most people have":

i.e. he'd be more likely to have a stroke than TB,

and people with TB were often isolated in sanatoria.

there is no real evidence that he was so isolated.

regards,

joe

[gregM]

I suggested Milaria because of his China service.

I know someone who caught Milaria in Vietnam. He still has

occassional flare ups.

[joe campbell]

and the china service is why i agree, he may have

been afflicted.

while i am not certain when quinine was widely used,

your friend with his viet nam exposure would have had

a milder course because of the multitude of drugs.

t'anks!

joe

[Guest Rick Research]

This is like the forensic anthropology series on public television, "Secrets of the Dead."

I am glad to be among people who are interested in the PERSON, not the PROFIT!