Unknown Greek? Order - Please help

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

Hello, when going through the awards of the German Admiral Otto Groos, I came across this entry:

"Griechischer Orden Commandeur Supérieur du Bataillon de Palmier", awarded in February 1927.

Does anyone know what this is? It's very odd that the name is written in French. When translated from French it says: "Superior Commander of the Palm Battalion". Is it even a decoration then? I would love to find out more about this.

Thanks!

Edited July 30, 2023 by Kriegsmarine Admiral

[The Prussian]

Hello!

I don´t know anything about the medal, but Groos was captain of the Light Cruiser "Hamburg" from Jan.26 -June 27.

The ship left Hamburg Feb.2, 1926. Her journey was:

Cuxhaven - British Channel - Biscaya - Pontvedra - Funchal - St.Vincent - Las Palmas - West-India - Central-America - Panama-Channel - Westcoast of Central- and North America - San Francisco - Pacific Ocean - Honolulu - Japan - Philippines - several ports of Indonesia - Colombo - Suez-Channel - several ports in the Mediterranean Sea* - Vigo - back to Germany.

* probably a port in Greek too. Maybe that is the missing link to the medal?

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Groos

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Hamburg

Edited July 31, 2023 by The Prussian

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

6 hours ago, The Prussian said:

Hello!

I don´t know anything about the medal, but Groos was captain of the Light Cruiser "Hamburg" from Jan.26 -June 27.

The ship left Hamburg Feb.2, 1926. Her journey was:

Cuxhaven - British Channel - Biscaya - Pontvedra - Funchal - St.Vincent - Las Palmas - West-India - Central-America - Panama-Channel - Westcoast of Central- and North America - San Francisco - Pacific Ocean - Honolulu - Japan - Philippines - several ports of Indonesia - Colombo - Suez-Channel - several ports in the Mediterranean Sea* - Vigo - back to Germany.

* probably a port in Greek too. Maybe that is the missing link to the medal?

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Groos

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Hamburg

Thank you. It's possible he got it during this journey. But still, I can't find any information about it. None whatsoever.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Kriegsmarine Admiral

[Farkas]

Gents,

I have a lead methinks, I’m not on Reddit so I couldn’t check the picture but 👇

The panathinaikon stadium is in Athens, Greece. The photo of the Hamburg is dated 6th Feb 1927. 👍

 

Although Greece isn’t listed on the ‘farewell’ tour it seems they stopped there, likely after Spain I guess.

 

So perhaps the award was the Captains reward 😁

 

tony

🍻 zzz

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Farkas
🍻

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

59 minutes ago, Farkas said:

Gents,

I have a lead methinks, I’m not on Reddit so I couldn’t check the picture but 👇

The panathinaikon stadium is in Athens, Greece. The photo of the Hamburg is dated 6th Feb 1927. 👍

 

Although Greece isn’t listed on the ‘farewell’ tour it seems they stopped there, likely after Spain I guess.

 

So perhaps the award was the Captains reward 😁

 

tony

🍻 zzz

 

Thank you for this information tony. But we still don't know what kind of an award it is.

[Farkas]

I got distracted!

I do have a possibility though.

I may be crazy but I think it’s this one…

 

Also.

The Ancient Greek word for palm tree is phoinix.

1 of the 2 native Greek palm trees is called a phoenix.

 

🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

 

I reckon a piss take not a weird translation.

 

t

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

19 minutes ago, Farkas said:

I got distracted!

I do have a possibility though.

I may be crazy but I think it’s this one…

 

Also.

The Ancient Greek word for palm tree is phoinix.

1 of the 2 native Greek palm trees is called a phoenix.

 

🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

 

I reckon a piss take not a weird translation.

 

t

I think you are onto something with this. Order of the Phoenix would make sense. The date fits, and it is indeed a Greek order like it is written on the document I posted in the first post.

And I suppose the class written ("Superior Commander") would be the Grand Commander Class?

The only odd thing is the fact that the name of the order is written in French.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Kriegsmarine Admiral

[Farkas]

8 hours ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

I think you are onto something with this. Order of the Phoenix would make sense. The date fits, and it is indeed a Greek order like it is written on the document I posted in the first post.

And I suppose the class written ("Superior Commander") would be the Grand Commander Class?

The only odd thing is the fact that the name of the order is written in French.

I was almost expecting silence!

So I’m glad you see something in it.
 

There aren’t many to chose from in the first place and certainly nothing using battalion. I did wonder if legion might have translated as battalion but there is no Order of the ‘legion of palms’ either.

& yes I also would take it to the Grand Commander class.

Can you tell me the context of the record? Is the source document written in his own hand or a third party? Is it a later official record?

 

If it was his to write as he pleased, then perhaps he was simply not impressed? Then I can imagine him getting this ‘Micky Mouse’ award and as he throws it in a drawer, he dismisses his title as…

On 30/07/2023 at 11:28, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

Superior Commander of the Palm Battalion

or just a joke.

but as to why in French, yes that’s still odd. Though I have one explanation that is possible.

Would a German Naval Captain have spoken with the Greek politicians using French as the common language?

 

Perhaps then, palm battalion was a private joke arising from that, though the likelihood of recording it as such would depend on who wrote your source document and when.

 

tony 🍻

 

 

 

 

 

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

9 hours ago, Farkas said:

I was almost expecting silence!

So I’m glad you see something in it.
 

There aren’t many to chose from in the first place and certainly nothing using battalion. I did wonder if legion might have translated as battalion but there is no Order of the ‘legion of palms’ either.

& yes I also would take it to the Grand Commander class.

Can you tell me the context of the record? Is the source document written in his own hand or a third party? Is it a later official record?

 

If it was his to write as he pleased, then perhaps he was simply not impressed? Then I can imagine him getting this ‘Micky Mouse’ award and as he throws it in a drawer, he dismisses his title as…

or just a joke.

but as to why in French, yes that’s still odd. Though I have one explanation that is possible.

Would a German Naval Captain have spoken with the Greek politicians using French as the common language?

 

Perhaps then, palm battalion was a private joke arising from that, though the likelihood of recording it as such would depend on who wrote your source document and when.

 

tony 🍻

 

 

 

 

 

The source is very much official and not written by Groos himself. The document can be found in his Personalakte in the Bundesarchiv. The awards were written by clerks, presumably from some other sources. Here is the full document:

[Farkas]

On 03/08/2023 at 07:37, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

The source is very much official and not written by Groos himself. The document can be found in his Personalakte in the Bundesarchiv. The awards were written by clerks, presumably from some other sources. Here is the full document:

Very much official…
That was unexpected!

👉 A German record, in French, for a non existent Greek ‘Commander superior of the palm battalion’… I said several times I felt the entry must have been informal/flippant.  But clearly not.

 

I enjoyed looking for clues about this the other night. I (of course) enjoyed finding the Phoenix link.
So I thought I’d have another go armed with this different new viewpoint.

 

If “battaillon de palmier” is used in the officially recorded title, there must be a explanation other than as ‘a joke’?
I had already looked but I looked again…

On 02/08/2023 at 21:37, Farkas said:

There aren’t many to chose from in the first place and certainly nothing using battalion. I did wonder if legion might have translated as battalion but there is no Order of the ‘legion of palms’ either.

& found it.

👉 “Modern Greek military ranks are based on Ancient Greek and Byzantine terminology.

In the army and Air Force, these names are often based on the unit or post that a holder of each rank usual commands. For example, a tagmatarchis is in charge of a tagma, which is derived from an Ancient Greek word translatable as "command", "order", or "class", and in modern Greek is a unit equivalent to a battalion in other armies; “

So, by my reckoning, we’ve got

On 02/08/2023 at 11:51, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

And I suppose the class written ("Superior Commander") would be the Grand Commander Class

Superior Commander 

= Grand Commander

Bataillon

= Order

Palmier

= Phoenix

 

Thats 3 for 3 now matched 👍👍

 

tony 🍻

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

6 minutes ago, Farkas said:

Very much official…
That was unexpected!

👉 A German record, in French, for a non existent Greek ‘Commander superior of the palm battalion’… I said several times I felt the entry must have been informal/flippant.  But clearly not.

 

I enjoyed looking for clues about this the other night. I (of course) enjoyed finding the Phoenix link.
So I thought I’d have another go armed with this different new viewpoint.

 

If “battaillon de palmier” is used in the officially recorded title, there must be a explanation other than as ‘a joke’?
I had already looked but I looked again…

& found it.

👉 “Modern Greek military ranks are based on Ancient Greek and Byzantine terminology.

In the army and Air Force, these names are often based on the unit or post that a holder of each rank usual commands. For example, a tagmatarchis is in charge of a tagma, which is derived from an Ancient Greek word translatable as "command", "order", or "class", and in modern Greek is a unit equivalent to a battalion in other armies; “

So, by my reckoning, we’ve got

Superior Commander 

= Grand Commander

Bataillon

= Order

Palmier

= Phoenix

 

Thats 3 for 3 now matched 👍👍

 

tony 🍻

Great job! Thank you very much for your help. You are a true detective 😄

[Farkas]

1 minute ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

Great job! Thank you very much for your help. You are a true detective 😄

My pleasure K.A. 😊

 

tony 🍻

 

PS, one last thought…

the French for phoenix is ‘phoenix’

& for order it is ‘ordre’

 

On 03/08/2023 at 07:37, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

The awards were written by clerks, presumably from some other sources

I’d say whoever wrote that translation was ‘thinking’ in Greek not French & (likely) The recorded translation was provided during the 1927 visit, by a Greek who knew French.

((During the early 20th century French was the only compulsory language in Greek schools.))

 

(That’s all now I promise 😁)
t 🍻

[farmer]

Very interesting topic. Something to bear in mind - and the foreign translations can be frustrating with such addressing and later research. What we know as the Greek Order of the Phoenix, was founded in 1926 but it was called 'Republican Order of Merit' at the time. It was officially re-named as the Royal Order of the Phoenix on 18th January 1936.