Help is needed. Post-war Ritterkreuz

[Freejack]

Hello Gentlemen. 

 I have a question about this post-war Ritterkreuz.  Can we expect this to be an original Souval?  On the cross there is a double mark 800. The seller says that this alpaca is not silver.  What is your opinion?  Is this the original post-war Souval Ritterkreuz?  

 

With Regards 

Freejack 

 

[Graf]

Not an original The seller is right it does not look Silver despite the mark

Post war copy and in my opinion not very good one

If the price is good it will be nice for display

 

Regards

[Freejack]

5 hours ago, Graf said:

Not an original The seller is right it does not look Silver despite the mark

Post war copy and in my opinion not very good one

If the price is good it will be nice for display

 

Regards

Thanks for the answer.  Yes, this cross is not original from the WW2 period.  I would like to know if it is Souval or another manufacturer.  The price corresponds to this cross, the seller does not deceive.  I looked at other crosses that are recognized as being made by Souval.  It's hard for me to determine the nuances. I'm looking for an original Souval.  I would like the opinion of those people who have experience with Souval crosses.  Sincerely

[Graf]

Fair enough

However this cross is not mad by the Firm Souval even after 1945

 

Here is an image of post War2 Souval  

 

Regards

 

I hope you will get more opinions

 

It is better to list your request in the Iron Cross Section

The Firm of Souval  made Knight Crosses into the late 60s

They use the Original dyes and in the early stages original left over parts

Those Crosses were supposedly made for the collectors market

 

Good Luck

 

I hope you will have more opinions

[Gordon Craig]

Freejack,

There is a sub forum on the Waffen Awards Forum (WAF) that I would suggest you post your cross on.  The collectors who post there specialize in the area you are seeking answers on. https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/forum/wehrmacht-era-militaria/-1957-medals-orders-and-decorations 

Regards,

Gordon

 

[Graf]

 

 

14 minutes ago, Gordon Craig said:

Freejack,

There is a sub forum on the Waffen Awards Forum (WAF) that I would suggest you post your cross on.  The collectors who post there specialize in the area you are seeking answers on. https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/forum/wehrmacht-era-militaria/-1957-medals-orders-and-decorations 

Regards,

Gordon

 

That is a very good advice

Also type on the search box (Top right) the name of Souval and you will get all the discussions regarding the Firm Souval

 

Regards

[Freejack]

7 hours ago, Gordon Craig said:

Фриджек,

На форуме Waffen Awards Forum (WAF) есть подфорум, на котором я бы посоветовал вам разместить свой крест. Коллекционеры, публикующие там сообщения, специализируются в той области, ответы на которые вы ищете. https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/forum/wehrmacht-era-militaria/-1957-medals-orders-and-decorations 

С уважением,

Гордон

 

Thanks for the advice.  I showed a cross on WAF.  Everyone there said that the cross was original Souval.  But on another forum, they told me that it was garbage.  I do not know what to think.  Look at the numbers 1939, and the swastika.  The first cross on WAF is said to be original.  The second cross is also original but on a different forum.  on the first cross of the number 1939 the top shows the line.  The second cross (identified as 100% original) numbers 9 and 9 are smaller in size than 1 and 3.  Swastika, look, the first swastika cross has a shape with vertical sides at an angle, the second cross, the swastika has vertical sides without an angle and I marked the difference in red.  The first cross has a strange stamp, the second is very high quality 800.

 

I am thinking , maybe  better to stop to buy WW2 items. 

 

Thanks  Gentlemen  for yours answer 

[Graf]

It is advisable to get as much knowledge as possible before start collecting WW2 German Items They are the most copied and faked ones since the interest is significant.

That way you will not depart with your money for buying questionable items.

However that is the fate of the collectors . They learn the hard way

Over the years I have seen even "reputable " Dealers selling questionable German WW2 items ..and over the years the fakers get  more experienced and perfect their work They can even age them

 

Personally I stopped collecting German WW2 items, However this is my personal choice.

 

Good Luck with your quest and your collecting

[Freejack]

9 hours ago, Graf said:

It is advisable to get as much knowledge as possible before start collecting WW2 German Items They are the most copied and faked ones since the interest is significant.

 

Personally I stopped collecting German WW2 items, However this is my personal choice.

 

Good Luck with your quest and your collecting

I agree with you 100%.  I collect NSDAP and Luftwaffe.  I have many books on this topic.  But still, I go to forums to get opinions from more experienced collectors, even when I am confident in the item I am buying.  But it is impossible to know everything.  If a person has been collecting belt buckles for many years, then he knows a lot about them.  I have a problem, I need one buckle and not 20 - 30. I don’t buy expensive things without investigating and consultation.  The original knight's cross is very expensive to me.  I wanted to buy Ritterkreuz Souval.  These are respected items.  No luck so far.

 

 I wish you good luck in your collecting too.  Here are some of my items

[Gordon Craig]

15 hours ago, Freejack said:

Thanks for the advice.  I showed a cross on WAF.  Everyone there said that the cross was original Souval.  But on another forum, they told me that it was garbage.  I do not know what to think.  Look at the numbers 1939, and the swastika.  The first cross on WAF is said to be original.  The second cross is also original but on a different forum.  on the first cross of the number 1939 the top shows the line.  The second cross (identified as 100% original) numbers 9 and 9 are smaller in size than 1 and 3.  Swastika, look, the first swastika cross has a shape with vertical sides at an angle, the second cross, the swastika has vertical sides without an angle and I marked the difference in red.  The first cross has a strange stamp, the second is very high quality 800.

 

I am thinking , maybe  better to stop to buy WW2 items. 

 

Thanks  Gentlemen  for yours answer 

Freejack,

I collected Third Reich artifacts for a number of years and then quit.  There are two things that you need to accept if you buy German artifacts from this era.  At some point you will buy something you feel is legit only to find out later that it is a fake.  Also, as you have already noted, some collectors will tell you an article is real and some will tell you it is fake.  Who do you believe?  And is the person giving you their opinion of your pictured item knowledgeable or not?  I now collect post war German artifacts.  Mostly police and ODMs from many different countries.  No matter what you collect there is always the danger of copies made to deceive the collector.  Third Reich era prices are so high that they attract people to make fakes.  It is too much of a mine field for many collectors.

Regards,

Gordon

[Graf]

7 minutes ago, Gordon Craig said:

Freejack,

I collected Third Reich artifacts for a number of years and then quit.  There are two things that you need to accept if you buy German artifacts from this era.  At some point you will buy something you feel is legit only to find out later that it is a fake.  Also, as you have already noted, some collectors will tell you an article is real and some will tell you it is fake.  Who do you believe?  And is the person giving you their opinion of your pictured item knowledgeable or not?  I now collect post war German artifacts.  Mostly police and ODMs from many different countries.  No matter what you collect there is always the danger of copies made to deceive the collector.  Third Reich era prices are so high that they attract people to make fakes.  It is too much of a mine field for many collectors.

Regards,

Gordon

I fully agree It is a nine field

Other problem is that fakers keep their knowledge up to date They also read our forums and books how to detect fakes ..and they correct their mistakes an providing much better fakes

 

Best regards

[Farkas]

On 20/09/2023 at 20:58, Freejack said:

I am thinking , maybe  better to stop to buy WW2 items. 

It’s such a shame that when we find something & are happy to pay the price, we still can’t be confident in our purchase. Now that even the experienced collectors have different opinions, what hope is there.  

 

On 21/09/2023 at 13:17, Graf said:

Other problem is that fakers keep their knowledge up to date They also read our forums and books how to detect fakes ..and they correct their mistakes an providing much better fakes

As Graf says, the fakers keep improving.

 

It seems the tells that people used to rely on are close to gone. Some when copied were an incorrect weight but now that’s no longer reliable. Some had a particular detail or design that was once beyond copying well but now easily done.

 

There is currently a UK firm hand making old British uniforms, supposedly for tv/theatre but there are a good dozen of their copies for sale as original on eBay. For now at least, luckily, there is still one sometimes two ways i spot them, which I won’t mention here.

& Personally, I sadly no longer buy postcards, I found a couple of fakes in my collection and that ended it for me, there and then. Printers now are just too good.

 

On 21/09/2023 at 13:04, Gordon Craig said:

Also, as you have already noted, some collectors will tell you an article is real and some will tell you it is fake.  Who do you believe?

👆 In most scenarios the best action is to walk away and find another example that hopefully receives universal approval but…

as in this case where there is little availability it is easier said than done.

 

cheers

tony 🍻

[Graf]

7 minutes ago, Farkas said:

It’s such a shame that when we find something & are happy to pay the price, we still can’t be confident in our purchase. Now that even the experienced collectors have different opinions, what hope is there.  

 

As Graf says, the fakers keep improving.

 

It seems the tells that people used to rely on are close to gone. Some when copied were an incorrect weight but now that’s no longer reliable. Some had a particular detail or design that was once beyond copying well but now easily done.

 

There is currently a UK firm hand making old British uniforms, supposedly for tv/theatre but there are a good dozen of their copies for sale as original on eBay. For now at least, luckily, there is still one sometimes two ways i spot them, which I won’t mention here.

& Personally, I sadly no longer buy postcards, I found a couple of fakes in my collection and that ended it for me, there and then. Printers now are just too good.

 

👆 In most scenarios the best action is to walk away and find another example that hopefully receives universal approval but…

as in this case where there is little availability it is easier said than done.

 

cheers

tony 🍻

Nicely said Tony

 

Cheers

[Freejack]

Friends!  Thanks for your comments and opinions regarding collecting.

 Of course I agree with you.  Of course, I take risks, but I don’t make expensive purchases without studying the item.  And I check on two forums, without a consensus and my research, I refuse to purchase.  Yes, you are right, now copying capabilities are very seriously.  Therefore, as you say, it is no longer possible to sleep peacefully.

 

 Thank you very much Gentlemen. 

 

By the way, badge Heeres Fallschirmjäger, I have read a lot of material on this forum.

 

With Regards 

Victor 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Freejack

[Alex K]

Hi all, just read this old thread and thought to update it.

The original posted example IS infact a Souval made piece, it can be determined by the very small circle indicated on the obverse core arm, this in fact indicates that the core itself is not a one piece item, but two, consisting of a thin sheet sandwich stamping, one for the front and one for the back, the circle is a Spot weld, to keep them together, this is typical for the last type of rk, that souval produced in the 60's/70's, it should have much less weight than a solid core one, low swastika and date are also indicative, I had/have one somewhere and eventually pulled it apart, 

Similarly, the ols seem to be his last 60's/70's produce, consisting of a thin one piece

stamping, integral oaks and swords, his early postwar OLS consisted of individual oakleaves and swords soldered together in the same manner as wartime ones, as shown earlier by member Graf

Edited July 11 by Alex K
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