laurentius Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 Dear fellow collectors, I am doing research into Baurat Ludwig Göbel. I was wondering if anyone could conform that he received the Bulgarian Civil Merit Order fifth class? I was able to confirm his Dutch and German awards, but my unfamiliarity with Bulgarian awards prevents me from dong so. Thanks in advance. Kind regards, Laurentius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 12 hours ago, laurentius said: Dear fellow collectors, I am doing research into Baurat Ludwig Göbel. I was wondering if anyone could conform that he received the Bulgarian Civil Merit Order fifth class? I was able to confirm his Dutch and German awards, but my unfamiliarity with Bulgarian awards prevents me from dong so. Thanks in advance. Kind regards, Laurentius Hi It will be very difficult to trace any low grade Bulgarian award More likely if you have to any Dutch materials it will be easier What information do you have for the Bulgarian award Do you have any photos Regards Graf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurentius Posted February 17 Author Share Posted February 17 Hello Graf, Thank you for your reply, I bought this medalbar a few days ago and it's coming to me as we speak. It was advertised as a medalbar belonging to a diplomat. As a collector of both Dutch and German awards I immediately knew that this wasn't a diplomat's bar. The last decoration is the very rare Dutch House Order of Orange with only 167 awards between 1908 and 1969. This decoration was given out at the personal behest of the monarch for 'services rendered to the royal house'. We know the names of all 167 recipients. Based on this I started scanning the list on people from Hessen, since the combination and sequence of the decorations pointed in that direction. It was clear to me it had to be someone connected to the royal court in Hesse. I ended up with a list of 12 possible persons, of whom Ludwig Göbel or Goebel was the most likely candidate to me. With the help of several collectors I was able to confirm that: - Ludwig Göbel received the Hessian Order of Phillip the magnanimous (2nd award) as Oberbahnhof Vorsteher in Wetzlar on 15. november 1904. - Ludwig Göbel received the Dutch House Order of Orange (last award) on 4. April 1913 as station director in Bad Homburg vor der Höhe. - Ludwig Göbel had received both the Red Eagle Order (3rd award) and the Verdienstkreuz für Kriegshilfe (1st award) by 1918 as Baurat in Hagenau in 1918. Persons working for the railway were amongst the most decorated persons in the German Empire and this would not be an uncommon combination for someone working at the train station of Bad Homburg. Especially given the fact that many different royal families came together there. This would explain the four different orders and the Verdienstkreuz and explain the abscence of an Iron Cross. Given the rarity of the House Order I think this medalbar is identifiable and to correctly identify it to Ludwig Göbel I need to confirm (somehow) that he received the Bulgarian Civil Merit Order somewhere around 1900-1920. Any help would be appreciated. Kind regards, Laurentius 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 Thank you for the information I hope any of the members from Bulgaria could help It is very interesting. Only thing I can tell you that the Fifth Class of the Order for Civil merit could be dated in this period It looks as the Second issue King Ferdinand 1908-1918 with King's Crown. Once you got the bar I will be very grateful if you can send the photo of the reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 (edited) It is a an early Overview of the Order for Civil Merit (part of my collection) The Fifth Class Cross on the bar is the same as the one without the ribbon on the very right of the picture You can see that the design is the same The crosses with the domed crown are the 1st Prince Ferdinand Issue 1891-190 Once the Prince Ferdinand proclaimed himself as King of Bulgaria in 1908 the crown changed, however the cross design staid the same till 1918 ( In this year King Ferdinand abdicated in favour of his oldest son Boris, who became King Boris III) I hope there could be a reference somewhere to bring more information for your research In a book published by Bulgarian author Todor Petrov in 2005 there are tables of the numbers of awarded Bulgarian orders during the period 1880-1908 According to this book The Fifth Class of the Order for Civil Merit was awarded to 288 foreign nationals. Unfortunately this period is for the Princely Issue -with the domed crown (the picture of the two Fifth class crosses for man and ladies) I hope some information does exist for the King's period 1908-1918 Edited February 19 by Graf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 On 18/02/2024 at 05:05, laurentius said: Hello Graf, Thank you for your reply, I bought this medalbar a few days ago and it's coming to me as we speak. It was advertised as a medalbar belonging to a diplomat. As a collector of both Dutch and German awards I immediately knew that this wasn't a diplomat's bar. The last decoration is the very rare Dutch House Order of Orange with only 167 awards between 1908 and 1969. This decoration was given out at the personal behest of the monarch for 'services rendered to the royal house'. We know the names of all 167 recipients. Based on this I started scanning the list on people from Hessen, since the combination and sequence of the decorations pointed in that direction. It was clear to me it had to be someone connected to the royal court in Hesse. I ended up with a list of 12 possible persons, of whom Ludwig Göbel or Goebel was the most likely candidate to me. With the help of several collectors I was able to confirm that: - Ludwig Göbel received the Hessian Order of Phillip the magnanimous (2nd award) as Oberbahnhof Vorsteher in Wetzlar on 15. november 1904. - Ludwig Göbel received the Dutch House Order of Orange (last award) on 4. April 1913 as station director in Bad Homburg vor der Höhe. - Ludwig Göbel had received both the Red Eagle Order (3rd award) and the Verdienstkreuz für Kriegshilfe (1st award) by 1918 as Baurat in Hagenau in 1918. Persons working for the railway were amongst the most decorated persons in the German Empire and this would not be an uncommon combination for someone working at the train station of Bad Homburg. Especially given the fact that many different royal families came together there. This would explain the four different orders and the Verdienstkreuz and explain the abscence of an Iron Cross. Given the rarity of the House Order I think this medalbar is identifiable and to correctly identify it to Ludwig Göbel I need to confirm (somehow) that he received the Bulgarian Civil Merit Order somewhere around 1900-1920. Any help would be appreciated. Kind regards, Laurentius Welcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurentius Posted February 20 Author Share Posted February 20 On 19/02/2024 at 04:02, Graf said: Once you got the bar I will be very grateful if you can send the photo of the reverse I checked and it is indeed a king Ferdinand issue from between 1908 and 1918. Here are the pictures. Kind regards, Laurentius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 Thank you That is some news At least you know that the Bulgarian Order was awarded during this period. I am not sure whether you can trace from the Bulgarian site exactly when was awarded You might dig on the Dutch site for any more information Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bretzen Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 Hello laurentius, unfortunately I can't confirm the awarding of the Bulgarian decoration either - at least not yet. If you have not yet looked up the book "Deutscher Ordensalmanch 1908/09", I can give you the following entry in this book about Ludwig Göbel (Goebel) on page 463: "Göbel, Ludwig, Großh. Hess. Stat. Vorsteh. I.Kl., Wetzlar (Hungen, Hess. 2. 8. 51): HssP4b * HssEEz25." This means that, according to his own statements, Göbel only possessed the two Hessian honours in 1909. Cheers Uwe 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurentius Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 Hello Uwe, Thank you for your reply, I didn't know Göbel had two decorations in 1909. I was aware of his Phillipsorden but I didn't know he had a long service decoration for working in the Hessian railways. That gives us an idea regarding his age. He must have entered service around 1884 or earlier. He was therefore probably born around 1860. Unless 'Hungen, Hess, 2. 8. 51.) is his date of birth. We know he got his House Order of Orange in 1913 and it was only around 1918 that he received the RAO4 and the Prussian verdienstkreuz für Kriegshilfe. I still don't know when he got his Bulgarian Civil Merit Order, but since it is a King Ferdinand issue it would have been between 1908 and 1918. Kind regards, Laurentius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilieff Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 20 hours ago, laurentius said: between 1908 and 1918 Hi laurentius, I wouldn't put hard stops when it comes to the award date for the Bulgarian order. The labelling of Princely vs King issues is mostly semantic. I mean that in the general period of 1900-1908, there was a gradual replacement of the `dome-shaped` crown with the latter, `pitched roof`-style crown. In this sense, it's theoretically possible that the order was awarded even before 1908. Furthermore, even after the abdication of 1918, there was leftover stock of `Ferdinand orders` in the Chancellery of Bulgaria orders, which continued to be awarded in the post-war years on behalf of King Boris III, though in much smaller numbers, compared to before. Congrats on the acquisition! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurentius Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 Dear fellow collectors, The city Archive of Wetzlar has written back to me. They said that Göbel lived in Wetzlar from 01.01.1906 and that he moved to Bad Homburg on the 23nd of may 1910. This probably coincides with his promotion. Prior to living in Wetzlar Göbel lived in Betzdorf. On 23/02/2024 at 18:04, ilieff said: I wouldn't put hard stops when it comes to the award date for the Bulgarian order. The labelling of Princely vs King issues is mostly semantic. I mean that in the general period of 1900-1908, there was a gradual replacement of the `dome-shaped` crown with the latter, `pitched roof`-style crown. In this sense, it's theoretically possible that the order was awarded even before 1908. He probably got it after 1909, since it isn't lised yet in the Ordensalmnach that Uwe mentioned. I consider it possibly that he got it after 1918, although I would find that unlikely. At this moment we will have to wait, I have also written to the archives of the cities of Hungen, Bad Homburg and Hagenau. Kind regards, Laurentius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 On 26/02/2024 at 02:00, laurentius said: Dear fellow collectors, The city Archive of Wetzlar has written back to me. They said that Göbel lived in Wetzlar from 01.01.1906 and that he moved to Bad Homburg on the 23nd of may 1910. This probably coincides with his promotion. Prior to living in Wetzlar Göbel lived in Betzdorf. He probably got it after 1909, since it isn't lised yet in the Ordensalmnach that Uwe mentioned. I consider it possibly that he got it after 1918, although I would find that unlikely. At this moment we will have to wait, I have also written to the archives of the cities of Hungen, Bad Homburg and Hagenau. Kind regards, Laurentius I am glad that information has increased Congrats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 On 24/02/2024 at 04:04, ilieff said: Hi laurentius, I wouldn't put hard stops when it comes to the award date for the Bulgarian order. The labelling of Princely vs King issues is mostly semantic. I mean that in the general period of 1900-1908, there was a gradual replacement of the `dome-shaped` crown with the latter, `pitched roof`-style crown. In this sense, it's theoretically possible that the order was awarded even before 1908. Furthermore, even after the abdication of 1918, there was leftover stock of `Ferdinand orders` in the Chancellery of Bulgaria orders, which continued to be awarded in the post-war years on behalf of King Boris III, though in much smaller numbers, compared to before. Congrats on the acquisition! Hi Ilieff, Good points. I also was tempting to mention that this issue was given beyond 1918 during the early years of King Boris III However Laurentius request was -" I need to confirm (somehow) that he received the Bulgarian Civil Merit Order somewhere around 1900-1920." That is why I tried to confirm that the Order was very likely given during King Ferdinand period Regards Graf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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