Hindenburg GFM baton Schriftbande

[filfoster]

Does anyone know or have a source for the exact wording of von Hindenburg's field marshal baton's upper Schriftband?

From the photo in Thies's undated auction catalog, it appears that his full last name was used 'v. Beneckendorff u.v. Hindenburg' and there is a discernible 'K' at the beginning indicating the usual Konig Wilhelm II... But there just isn't enough 'band length' for the usual 'Konig Wilhelm II Dem Feldmarschall v. Beneckendorff u.v. Hindenburg'  So....Something got dropped or abbreviated.

How did they cram all that in without resort to a second line?

The bottom appears to have "Fur Verdienst in Krieg und Frieden 1. NOV. 1914" which corresponds to the date of his promotion to field marshal.

The other odd thing is the pattern for the baton seems to be the earlier 1905 to 1911 pattern with SEVEN alternating crowns and eagles, vice the later FIVE alternating crowns and eagles in column up the shaft of the baton. This according to the book "MYTHOS MARSCHALLSTAB"

Edited July 13 by filfoster

[filfoster]

Does anyone have a copy or access to this old auction catalog? I suspect there may be additional photos of the item. I am not certain it was actually in the auction or just a PR piece, used to 'gussy up' the catalog. Thies has certainly had many high-end items over the years but it would be surprising for this particular piece to have ever been on the market.

[Great Dane]

I looked at my many printed Thies catalogues and none of them show any English text on the cover (I have lots more digital Thies catalogues, but for some reason Thies never include the cover page in their downloads)

 

So maybe this is some promotional flyer, like you say?

[filfoster]

4 hours ago, Great Dane said:

I looked at my many printed Thies catalogues and none of them show any English text on the cover (I have lots more digital Thies catalogues, but for some reason Thies never include the cover page in their downloads)

 

So maybe this is some promotional flyer, like you say?

It appears in the back pages of the English version of the Verlag book 'The German Generals'. It looks like the cover of a Thies auction catalog but might have been done up just for an add at the end of that book. ?

It appears that the Hindenburg baton was the subject of a photo shoot at some time. I cannot find ANYTHING with a Google search for the Hindenburg baton and there are no photos in the Mythos Marshalstab book of the baton exept the bronze rendering of H's hand holding a simplified portion of the baton. 

There may be some reference, even without photos, of the top Schriftband that has the exact wording. I just can't guess how /what was omitted or abbreviated to make it fit if 'v. Beneckendorff u.v. Hindenburg' was, as it clearly shows, inscribed.

Edited July 14 by filfoster

[JohanH]

Here are two pictures I found with a google search. 

 

 

 

[filfoster]

1 hour ago, JohanH said:

Here are two pictures I found with a google search. 

 

 

 

JohanH: Now we're getting somewhere. I could not get a SINGLE result like this with any Google search. This still leaves just a few unanswered questions on the exact wording of the beginning of the top schriftband:

I make out now:

"König Wilhelm II D. FELDM * v. Beneckendorff u.v. Hindenburg"

or could be "KG. Wilhelm II D. FLDM * v. Beneckendorff u.v. Hindenburg"

This answers how 'Dem' and 'Feldmarschall' were abbreviated. How would 'Konig' be abbreviated?

The lower schriftband is:

"Fur Verdienst in Krieg und Frieden 27 NOVEMBER 1914". I had the date wrong in my original assumption.

Edited July 14 by filfoster

[Great Dane]

I read "FELDM", not "FLDM"...

[filfoster]

8 minutes ago, Great Dane said:

I read "FELDM", not "FLDM"...

Ach! Yes, you are correct. I edited the post. Any guesses about the 'Konig Wilhelm II' abbreviation?

Edited July 14 by filfoster

[filfoster]

Is anyone able to find additional pictures of the baton to show how Konig Wilhelm II might have been abbreviated?

[filfoster]

Thanks to all those who show interest in beating this obscure, nearly dead horse further. 

On a closer examination of the photos provided by JohanH, I think the upper Schriftband says:

*KONIG WILHLEM II. FELDM v. BENECKENDORFF u.v. HINDENBURG

 

The bottom Schriftband is the same as posited above:

FUR VERDIENST iM KRIEG UND FREIDEN 27 NOVEMBER 1914

 

Does anyone else suspect this baton may not be original, because of its earlier form of 7 alternating crowns and eagles vice the correct 5 alternating crowns and eagles for the time 1914?  

Edited July 16 by filfoster

[VtwinVince]

There are some very good fake batons floating around. I once held the alleged Interim-Stab of Graf von Haeseler, which was very convincing, even down to the case, but which was apparently an old copy.

[filfoster]

38 minutes ago, VtwinVince said:

There are some very good fake batons floating around. I once held the alleged Interim-Stab of Graf von Haeseler, which was very convincing, even down to the case, but which was apparently an old copy.

Yes. I can imagine, although I've never seen one, everything else 'high-end' Imperial German has been copied. What bothers me about the Thies catalog/ad baton is the earlier form, of 7 alternating crowns and eagles, versus the 5 alternating crowns and eagles on all the other batons awarded during WW1. AND, NONE of the photos of Hindenburg holding the formal baton show anything but the FIVE alternating crowns and eagles, even the bronze statue one.  That's telling. Unless someone can provide a photo of him holding this more elaborate baton, it seems unlikely to me to be an original.

I am copying it (NOT good enough for a 'deceptive copy'-the eagles are of a different form- but only for my uniform displays) so I need to at least have it made in the proper form and the correct Schriftband. I think we have solved the wording of the Schriftband. The copy will be of the FIVE alternating crowns and eagles.

Edited July 16 by filfoster

[filfoster]

Any more input on this? Either question: 

Exact wording of the Schriftbands

Whether this photos show an original Hindenburg baton or a reproduction, wrong form (earlier type with 7 instead of 5 alternating crowns and eagles in column)?

[filfoster]

Does anyone know what happened to Hindenburg's marshal baton? Easy to imagine it's long gone, looted by the Russians or worse, destroyed. I hope it survived, perhaps with the family, still?

[VtwinVince]

I'm going to guess that it was looted when the Russians captured Gut Neudeck.

[filfoster]

On 10/08/2024 at 18:25, VtwinVince said:

I'm going to guess that it was looted when the Russians captured Gut Neudeck.

Even less likely then, that the alleged Hindenburg baton pictured in the Thies catalog is an original. Too many strikes against it, although other than the wrong form (too many crowns and eagles, reflecting the pre 1912 form), it looks real.

[makoff]

On 16/07/2024 at 00:08, filfoster said:

Is anyone able to find additional pictures of the baton to show how Konig Wilhelm II might have been abbreviated?

At least the word König is definitely NOT abbreviated at all.

[filfoster]

30 minutes ago, makoff said:

At least the word König is definitely NOT abbreviated at all.

 

No, and I didn't abbreviate "KonIg' on my copy (see attached photo. Yes, the bands are silver not white enamel and the eagles are slightly wrong form, but it's a decent copy, I think). We agreed above to drop the usual 'DEM'.

Edited October 1 by filfoster

[filfoster]

For fun, here are some of my other replica FM batons. L-R: French WW1; Russian, pre-WW1(no Russian WW1 field marshals); Imperial German (Prussian) and British.