Soviet Honorary British Knighthoods Bestowed on Red Army Officers During World War II

[Ed_Haynes]

Yes, that too!

And, as we have said repeatedly, we need to be careful about our nomenclature: GBE, KBE, CBE, OME, MBE.

[RichieC]

...or post #9 of this thread.

The one the man in my photo is wearing does not seem like it has any type of enamel... Or am I missing something?

[Ed_Haynes]

The one the man in my photo is wearing does not seem like it has any type of enamel... Or am I missing something?

GBE (sash badge and breast star), KBE (neck badge and breast star), and CBE (neck badge) have enamel, the OBE is gilt, the MBE is silver. Both the OBE and MBE are breast badges. The military ribbon has a central stripe, the civil ribbon does not.

The Soviets habitually wore these awards wrong, often hilariously wrong. Much as the British would mount an OPW on a medal bar.

Is that clear??

Edited April 11, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[RichieC]

Yes, that too!

And, as we have said repeatedly, we need to be careful about our nomenclature: GBE, KBE, CBE, OME, MBE.

Thanks for the link Ed...

Then the man in my photo is wearing an MBE perhaps?

[Ed_Haynes]

Then the man in my photo is wearing an MBE perhaps?

OBE or MBE, hard to tell. One would need to check the records (and most of these honorary awards in WWII were not gazetted).

[Ed_Haynes]

From the victory parade video, some sailor clearly had no clue as how to wear his CBE (? or GBE??).

Edited April 12, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[Wild Card]

Yes, that too!

And, as we have said repeatedly, we need to be careful about our nomenclature: GBE, KBE, CBE, OME, MBE.

GBE, KBE, CBE, OME, MBE.

Note to self - If it remotely concerns The Order of the British Empire, double check before posting.

Thanks for the reminder Ed

[Christian Zulus]

Another question ...

Gentlemen,

did the Soviets use the abbreviations of the British Orders in their name ?

For example:

Hero of the Soviet Union Col.-Lt. Alexei Alexevich Alexandrow OBE

Best regards

Christian

[NavyFCO]

did the Soviets use the abbreviations of the British Orders in their name ?

I would highly doubt it. I suspect that such a move would be quite against the preachings of communism! Having experience with US troops who were awarded British knighthoods, I only know of one that actually used it in conjunction with his name, and that was when his kids wrote up the thank-you notes given to the people who came to the veteran's funeral (which I received). That's the only time I've seen it in use over here.

Dave

[Christian Zulus]

I would highly doubt it. I suspect that such a move would be quite against the preachings of communism! Having experience with US troops who were awarded British knighthoods, I only know of one that actually used it in conjunction with his name, and that was when his kids wrote up the thank-you notes given to the people who came to the veteran's funeral (which I received). That's the only time I've seen it in use over here.

Dave

Dear Dave,

that's what I guessed - but according to international law British Knighthoods can be used in conjunction with the bearers name.

For example: The famous Austrian pianist Alfred Brendel, who lives for decades in London, writes his name "Alfred Brendel KBE" - due to the fact, that he still has his Austrian passport, he is not "Sir Alfred Brendel" .

Best regards

Christian

[Ed_Haynes]

Not quite. "Sir" or "Dame" cannot be used except by Crown Subjects. Honorray knights/dames (others) may not. Anyone can use the postnominals, but their government may not recognize them, you can call yourself the Duke of Pimpleprig, and may get away with it in some circles (thereby empowering the imposted crowd), but it might well and appropriately mean nothing legally and legitimally.

The Soviet egalitarian socialist attitude toward such feudal stuff ("stuff") may explain in part their deviant approach to the wearing of British orders?

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

Along this line, to what degree was the title ?Hero of the Soviet Union? recognized and utilized? I have noticed that it is invariably noted in print and with photographs.

For instance, would someone be so introduced (May present Comrade Ivan Ivanov, Hero of the Soviet Union)? Was any notation made after their signature (...yours truly, Ivan Ivanov, HSU or ... by order of [signature] Col. Ivan Ivanov, HSU) ? Any ideas?

[Christian Zulus]

Gentlemen,

Along this line, to what degree was the title ?Hero of the Soviet Union? recognized and utilized? I have noticed that it is invariably noted in print and with photographs.

For instance, would someone be so introduced (May present Comrade Ivan Ivanov, Hero of the Soviet Union)? Was any notation made after their signature (...yours truly, Ivan Ivanov, HSU or ... by order of [signature] Col. Ivan Ivanov, HSU) ? Any ideas?

Dear Wild Card,

I think, that HSU & HSL had been in the CCCP legal parts of one's name and had been put always in front of the name.

We had an rather ident law in Austria for more than 100 years, that the (old) academic university degress, like "Magister" (= MA) or "Doktor" (= PhD), had been legal parts of your name and had to be written at all documents, passport, etc. in abbreviations "Mag." or "Dr.". The authorities in Austria even forced you to use your title in your handwritten signature .

In the CCCP it might have been the same - like HSU & HSL - with other titles, like "Meritorious ...." or "Member of the Academy of Sciences". So, when you had been a famous scientest, the titles in your name had been much longer, than your real name .

The habit to incorporate titles in one's name seems to have been more present in the history of central & eastern Europe, than in the western world .

Best regards

Christian

[Wild Card]

Thank you Christian. Your answer and explanation pretty conform to what I had suspected.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[slava1stclass]

To all:

A very nice shot of Hero of the Soviet Union A. N. Kukharenko proudly wearing his British-awarded Distinguished Flying Cross.

Regards,

slava1stclass

[Ed_Haynes]

No "knighthood", for sure, but some inventive mounting of a range of exotic foreign awards.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Ed_Haynes

[Guest Rick Research]

Good thing Exalted Diamond-Encrusted Comrades like Marshal of the Soviet Union Moskalenko just had to stand there and not goose-step in parades or

think of the clanking and the chipping !!!!!!!

[slava1stclass]

To all:

On 12 July 1945, Field Marshal Montgomery, acting on behalf of the King of England, presented honorary British knighthoods to the following Red Army officers:

Marshal of the Soviet Union Zhukov; Commander, 1st Belorussian Front - Knight Grand Cross of The Most Honourable Order of the Bath (G.C.B.)

Marshal of the Soviet Union Rokossovskiy; Commander, 2nd Belorussian Front - Knight Commander of The Most Honourable Order of the Bath (K.C.B.)

General of the Army Sokolovskiy; Deputy Commander, 1st Belorussian Front - Knight Commander of The Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (K.B.E.)

Colonel General Malinin; Chief of Staff, 1st Belorussian Front - Knight Commander of The Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (K.B.E.)

The ceremony took place in the heart of shattered Berlin directly underneath the Brandenburg Gate. The Kings Company of the Grenadier Guards formed the Guard of Honor with tanks of the Kings 8th Royal Irish Hussars drawn up on either side.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

Here is a very nice image of the day in question shortly after the honorary knighthoods were bestowed. From left to right in the picture: Zhukov, Montgomery, Rokossovskiy, Sokolovskiy and Malinin. Notice that Zhukov wears the wide sash for the G.C.B. (from his right shoulder to his left hip) and that all the Soviet recipients carry their award cases - Zhukov in his right hand and the others in their left.

Regards,

slava1stclass

[slava1stclass]

No "knighthood", for sure, but some inventive mounting of a range of exotic foreign awards.

Ed,

MSU Moskalenko does indeed wear the neck badge (as a pinback) and breast star for his honorary knighthood as a military K.B.E.

Regards,

slava1stclass

[Ed_Haynes]

Yes, but an honortary KBE, no knighthood. (Although he seems to wear a GBE badge and KBE star?)

Edited March 19, 2009 by Ed_Haynes

[slava1stclass]

Gents,

The British Distinguished Service Order (DSO) worn on a Soviet M1945 "Victory Parade" general officer uniform.

Regards,

slava1stclass

[slava1stclass]

To all:

On 12 July 1945, Field Marshal Montgomery, acting on behalf of the King of England, presented honorary British knighthoods to the following Red Army officers:

Marshal of the Soviet Union Zhukov; Commander, 1st Belorussian Front - Knight Grand Cross of The Most Honourable Order of the Bath (G.C.B.)

Marshal of the Soviet Union Rokossovskiy; Commander, 2nd Belorussian Front - Knight Commander of The Most Honourable Order of the Bath (K.C.B.)

General of the Army Sokolovskiy; Deputy Commander, 1st Belorussian Front - Knight Commander of The Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (K.B.E.)

Colonel General Malinin; Chief of Staff, 1st Belorussian Front - Knight Commander of The Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (K.B.E.)

The ceremony took place in the heart of shattered Berlin directly underneath the Brandenburg Gate. The Kings Company of the Grenadier Guards formed the Guard of Honor with tanks of the Kings 8th Royal Irish Hussars drawn up on either side.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

A couple of additional color images from that day. The first was taken prior to the investiture.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited April 8, 2009 by slava1stclass

[slava1stclass]

Note the tanks from Kings 8th Royal Irish Hussars in the background.

[James Hoard]

I seem to remember that the large oversize statute of Marshal Zhukov outside the Kremlin,just around the corner from Red Square, has him wearing his Honorary Knighthood rather prominently. In his case the broad riband, sash badge and breast star of a military GCB.

This is from the early 1990's but I guess the statue may still be there, or has it been moved?

Cheers

James.

[slava1stclass]

Gents,

What appears to be a CBE neck badge (worn as a breast badge) on a HSU Guards general who fought at Kursk and later in Machuria.

Regards,

slava1stclass