EK 1914 The next fake Godet......

[Motorhead]

This one is a little different..........

http://www.militaria.de/cgi-bin/item.pl?item=47385

Micha

[Tony J]

Micha,

Unusual example to say the least. Why do you think that it is the next fake Godet? I'll be the devil's advocate here and say not so fast, my friend.

I have several wartime Godet's in my collection. I'll have to check to see if the core is a Godet product. Right off hand it doesn't look to be. It does look to be well made though even if the quality of the frame is not what we would expect from a wartime Godet produced EKI.

We do know that during the TR era there was a Godet/Zimmerman business connection regarding the manufacture of EKIs. Could this one possibly be a subcontracted out example that Gebruder Godet retailed with actually manufacturing it? Maybe an interesting point to ponder.

Another point that you may find interesting.

The Gebruder Godet & Co. tm according to Jacob's in his book "Court Jewelers of the World" was first used starting in the late 20's or early 30's.

Given that, do you show a fake or an early 30's commercial replacement EKI?

Just some thoughts.

Tony

Edited May 24, 2006 by Tony J

[ekhunter]

As far as the core is concerned, it's IMO that this is not a Godet core. The caps of the "W" look too thin, and take a look at the jewels on the bottom of the crown, I don't think this is Godet core. I think someone is making these somewhere now. Just my opinion, I would pass on this one if given the chance. Maybe my loss, but better safe than sorry. Just don't like it!

Edited May 24, 2006 by ekhunter

[Stogieman]

From the back, it looks very nice, I don't have a problem with the core, other than the softness of the detail. However, having said this, I do not believe it to be a Godet, but rather a legit cross that someone has enhanced with the mark...... I don't think the cross is a sham guys, just the mark

[Tony J]

It would be interesting to see how many of these appear in the near future. Having collected Godet's for quite some time I haven't seen this type of EKI before. My curiousity is peaked but I am also very cautious about it regarding it being a genuine example. As I mentioned I was taking the stance of the devil's advocate here.

Tony

[Motorhead]

Tony,

here are some Zimmermann's...

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...p?t=151714-much better quality than the suspect Godet. The biggest question for me-why should have Godet used totally different cores,frames and pins?We know from other makers that they have used different cores and frames(Meybauer for example....)but with the same setup.Without the stamp at the backside no one would think this one could be a Godet. Nad a piece produced by someone else? Why-Godet was big in business,they produced all kinds of medals and awards....

Micha

[Stogieman]

Gentlemen & Ladies, please remember that while posting a link is OK, at some point, the pictures will be gone from the auction site.

[ekhunter]

From the back, it looks very nice, I don't have a problem with the core, other than the softness of the detail. However, having said this, I do not believe it to be a Godet, but rather a legit cross that someone has enhanced with the mark...... I don't think the cross is a sham guys, just the mark

Stogieman, no disrespect meant, and maybe it's just me, but if someone takes a cross from another manufacturer, and tries to enhance it with a "mark" from a different manufacturer, then that cross to me is a sham. Maybe I'm anal about it, but that's just me. This cross is being passed off as a Godet, and I don't think it is. IMO--Sham job.

[Stogieman]

Additional views.......

[Tony J]

Micha,

During the Imperial era Godet certainly was a premier producer of awards. Did this same production level carry over to the bleak days of the world wide Great Depression when the Gebruder Godet & Co. tm was in use?

I don't know. I have my own reservations about this EK being as it is purported to be. But having said that I am not 100% willing to dismiss this EK as being an outright fraud. I am mostly leaning in that direction though.

Tony

[Stogieman]

pretty sure that's what I just said...... cross with a sham (read that as fake, misapplied, in a manner to deceive, etc.) mark.

That might make the mark a sham, the cross damaged goods..... but it doesn't change the fact that the cross itself, might just have been a real one, once upon a time........

[Tony J]

Good save, Stogieman!

[Motorhead]

OK-if this cross is good and the maker mark is bad-it's offered as a Godet which it is shurly not! So what would you call this? And-I don't like the crown,I don't like the date and I don't like the pin.....just my two cents.Have you got a matching EK in your collection? Pieces of the 30ies are everything but not rare....

Micha

[ekhunter]

pretty sure that's what I just said...... cross with a sham (read that as fake, misapplied, in a manner to deceive, etc.) mark.

That might make the mark a sham, the cross damaged goods..... but it doesn't change the fact that the cross itself, might just have been a real one, once upon a time........

I agree with you on that one. However whoever is doing this is obviously trying to get a premium for an average cross at best, if real.

Edited May 24, 2006 by ekhunter

[Stogieman]

The other thing to note here is that the beading, hinge and pin are all consistent with other known, original examples pre-1920... but NOT from Godet....

[Mike K]

Hi,

I'm late to this thread, but personally I do not get a good feeling from this cross. Round/Needle pin 1914 EK1s are actually quite uncommon. The widish barrel hinge and the pin with the flat spot at the hinge end instantly reminded me of of the hardware on the series EK1 equivalent repros that have recently hit the market (Meck-Schwerin, Oldenburg, Anhalt, Braunschweig, Meck-Strelitz). Further, imo the cross is not of good quality in either the beading or the core. The beading at the inner points is strange/unusual (almost childish in design) and the profile of the inner arms is more flat than curved. It is not one I would want in my collection.

Regards

Mike

[Motorhead]

Mike,

exactely my thoughts about it.When I remember right there's just one type with the round pin(one piece construction)

Micha

[Mike K]

Hi Micha,

There are a few more types. Here are my 3 - an AWS, a "puffy crown" 800 and an unmarked blued core example. All 3-piece with steel cores.

Regards

Mike

Obverse...

[Mike K]

Reverse...

[Stogieman]

Seems to me we just saw more than one type of EK1 with a round pin.

[Tony J]

Seems to me we just saw more than one type of EK1 with a round pin.

Round pins are not that unusual on Imperial era EKIs. While they are not found on officially procured Governemnt award pieces they are not too scarce on commercially made awards.

Now, I'm curious as to how many I may have in my collection. I'll report my findings a bit later.

Tony

[ekhunter]

Seems to me we just saw more than one type of EK1 with a round pin.

Nice grouping Mike! That's the most round pins I've seen together. It's like visiting a museum today. I knew of the round or needle pins on the AWS crosses, but these other two, Sweet! I'm a little bit confused here though, Was Micha trying to say that he only knew of one round pin maker on one piece items, or only one maker that made round pins? If the latter is the case, then Mike deep sixed that theory, and the so called Godet example shown earlier appears to be a three piece, at least from the photo, so a little clarification would be nice. Thanks, Russel.

Edited May 26, 2006 by ekhunter

[Motorhead]

Well,I've simply forgotten the AWS-mea culpa! The other two Eks are new to me-a few years ago I owned a 3 piece EK with such a round needle-but I never liked it because of the poor quality and until now I was the opinion it was just a simple unprofessional repair...The one piece EK I was talking came together with some other medals and some documents.A friend of mine bought it and traded it for some TR stuff.It wasn't really nice,but in good condition.Unfortunately my pics of these group where lost in a hard drive crash-With some luck he still has got the pics.....

Micha

[Tony J]

OK Gents,

Here's the numbers I mentioned I would post. An interesting comparision can be drawn from this limited sampling to the relative scarcity of the Imperial round pin EKI's.

Round pin EKI's ..............5

Screwback EKI's..............10

All other pinback EKI's......18

There seems to be a progressive doubling of numbers as we go to the most commonly available examples of Imperial EKI's. I would suggest that the round pin EKI's are between double post and single post screwbacks for scarcity. Double post examples being scarcer than the single post screwbacks.

Just some thoughts.

Tony

Edited May 27, 2006 by Tony J

[joe campbell]

tony-

good on you for being a bit of a scientist!

i concur on the relative scarcity of the above EK's.

another thought along the same lines would

compare flat crosses vs. vaulted.

i happen to think vaulted crosses are...uh... SEXY!!

joe