SA marine

[dennisf]

Hi all

Here is a well worn SA marine that I have had for some 25 years.

[dennisf]

Front

[dennisf]

Maker mark

[GeorgeCL]

Looks like a ground Roehm as well.

Can we get clearer pics of the gold toning?

Thanks

George

[sdp]

Why is the dagger considered to be an SA marine?

[Colorado]

Wingen's are the only maker I have seen that has the gilt finish I like. Here is mine picked up many years ago. Gilt eagle and all fittings on both dagger, scabbard and hanger. I have used it as my Avatar on the forums for 5 years now.

[Erich]

The Marine SA is an interesting branch of the SA (as are most of its branches) for me. I've been researching the SA for many years, and have yet to find any period information (either RZM documents or advertisements, other sales advertisements, dagger pricelists or catalogues, NSDAP handbooks, other NSDAP official uniform guides, private SA uniform regulations or uniform references, color images, etc.) pertaining to a special dagger or daggers for that group. I've seen, over the years, both the all black and the gold plated examples in veteran lots, but never with any connection to the Marine SA. Has anyone any period documentation that either gilted or all black daggers were to be worn? I know that they definitely were not worn by the rank and file of the Marine SA, but it's certainly possible that here or there specially finished pieces were produced for presentations in very limited numbers.

Erich

[Colorado]

Good to see you here Erich. I think long ago we had the same discussion. I too have not seen references to it bring Marine SA. I do know that "coppery" finishes are found consistantly on Anton Wingens. A collector should be suspiciuos of any SA purported to be Marine SA. As with Wingen it is reasonable that other makers made gilt SA's and they should occur in batches as this would not normally be an individual thing but a group purchase. Like I said, most of these that I have seen, I would not own just based on the color alone for fear it was post-war. The color is unique.

Edited July 28, 2006 by Colorado

[sdp]

I bought this as a Marine SA but it has a black scabbard, so it should be an NSKK... right? I sent photos to Fisher and he said somebody has just stained the grip darker and that it wasn't a Marine SA. However, the gau mark is Nm, which is on the coast.

Who knows what it is then?

Edited July 30, 2006 by sdp

[sdp]

It's also unit marked...

[sdp]

Then, a couple of years later I buy this. It has the same gau mark and is also unit marked. The scabbard is brown, (as you can see) but this wasn't purchased as a Marine SA...

[sdp]

Note the unit mark number... the number is pretty close to the one above...

[sdp]

Here's another photo showing the 2 grips together... note how dark they are. Much like an F Herder but unfortunately I don't own one of those to show a comparison.

[Erich]

These are very interesting! Are they both by the same maker? Can you tell whether the finish on the wood was intended to darken the wood, or to blacken it?

Erich

[sdp]

The brown scabbard one is made by G. Felix. The black scabbard one appears to be a ground Rohm and I think, after showing to others, that it's an Eickhorn, as most of the makers mark is gone... (see picture).

Despite what Fisher says, there is no sign of any staining to either grip. It's definitely all original and unmessed with but to be fair, he only saw photos and didn't have a hands on opinion.

[Erich]

I see--so are the handles actually black (like an early SS dagger) or dark brown?--it's hard to tell from the images.

Erich

The brown scabbard one is made by G. Felix. The black scabbard one appears to be a ground Rohm and I think, after showing to others, that it's an Eickhorn, as most of the makers mark is gone... (see picture).

Despite what Fisher says, there is no sign of any staining to either grip. It's definitely all original and unmessed with but to be fair, he only saw photos and didn't have a hands on opinion.

[sdp]

They're both very, very dark brown... not black.

Here's another photo that will help...

[Fritz]

Dennisf,

Can we see a closeup of the grip and tonning?

SDP,Eric,Colorado,

Have you ever noticed that just about every dagger from group Nm is numbered? Most of the ones I've seen except mine is marked 15/#####. Makes me think they were keeping close tabs on daggers. Here's mine. Whats your opinion?

Fritz

[Colorado]

Hi Fritz - Did not know that, interesting. What I do know is every legit gilt SA I have ever seen like mine is always a Wingen and there are not many I have seen.

I don't see the gilt on the original one posted, but it is the correct maker.

[Bob Coleman]

it seems as though several variations of the SA Marine dagger exist. Many years ago, I veteran purchased a SA marine dagger with a black handle and anodized black scabbard. The majority of the finish of the handle is now worn away. The blade is likely an Eichorn. This was a Rohm dagger that had the total inscription and maker's mark professionally removed. My dagger has nickle silver fittings without any trace of gilding.

Bob

[sdp]

I found some info on Marine SA's from Fisher...

"Apart from the naval daggers for the Kriegsmarine, the only marine dagger was the marine dagger of the NSKK. This was issued to units of the NSKK, which formed the Pwer Boat Standarte / Kraftbootstandarte. The members of the unit wore navy blue uniforms, and their daggers were colour coordinated to match the uniform. The SA standard pattern dagger was issued with either brown or black grips, black scabbard and appropriately for marine use, brass coloured crossguards and scabbard fittings. In the first large production of SA daggers, the marine unit and the transportation unit received the standard SA dagger. At a later stage , probably when the later chained NSKK dagger was introduced, the transportation unit SA daggers were modified by having the scabbard painted black. There are NSKK daggers with crossguard regional group area codes of the first large issue of SA daggers in 1934/35, however, there are no anodized scabbards but only those that have been painted. The marine unit dagger was then possibly also changed.

[Erich]

Interesting! So he is verifying that there was no special Marine dagger except for the NSKK Marine? There is no documentation of the existence of a special Marine SA dagger of either pattern in any period regulation, uniform guide, dagger catalogue, or other contemporary to the period.

Edited August 3, 2006 by Erich

[Bob Coleman]

Does the author give a reference or period source to back up the theories on the Marine SA daggers? If not, he's incorrect. There is no documentation of the existence of a special Marine SA dagger of either pattern in any period regulation, uniform guide, dagger catalogue, or other contemporary to the period.

Erich-

I have also heard the opinion of there neer being a special dagger for the SA Marine. However, that does not explain the anomoly of the pattern dagger I won. As I mentioned, a black handle, anodized scabbard and possibly, traces of gilt on the nickle silver fittings. it is also an early dagger being a fully refinished Rhom dagger. Many years ago, I also saw a similar dagger in the possesion of a veteran who personally bought the dagger back. Possibly, another one of those puzzlements to which there is no present answer

[Bob Coleman]

Erich-

I have also heard the opinion of there never being a special dagger for the SA Marine. However, that does not explain the anomoly of the pattern dagger I own. As I mentioned, a black handle, anodized scabbard and possibly, traces of gilt on the nickle silver fittings. it is also an early dagger being a fully refinished Rhom dagger. Many years ago, I also saw a similar dagger in the possesion of a veteran who personally bought the dagger back. Possibly, another one of those puzzlements to which there is no present answer

[Erich]

Hello Bob,

Caught me in mid-edit! I know, I've seen, many years ago, 2 black SA daggers--factory types, not hand painted examples--and a gilted fitting dagger (no scabbard unfortunately) directly from vets. At the time the black daggers were thought to possibly be GI souvenirs made up of SA and SS parts, which we now know is unlikely. I think it's more likely that there were limited daggers made up, perhaps as a special order, for purchase or presentation by or to Marine SA officers or members. I think the majority of the organization would have worn standard brown/nickel daggers, though.