SMLE marking

[ksg]

Hello

Can anyone help me identifying this marking? The rifle is made by B.S.A.&Co and is a No 1 Mk III*.

Kjell

[attachmentid=47061]

[peter monahan]

KPS

The script looks like Thai or a related script to me - check wikepedia and see what you think. The style of the tiger is also very reminiscent of that part of the world.

A couple of the letters - the first 2 on the top row, and the fifth on the top and first on the bottom row could definitely be Thai, as could the "57" in 8th place on the top. Not sure about the others. It doesn't look like Burmese - a more logical choice - to my untutored eye but I'd say definitely from that area (one of the scripts derived from ancient Khmer.)

Good luck with the ID. Let us know what you find!

Peter

[JensF.]

It looks like Sanskrit: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit

[ksg]

KPS

The script looks like Thai or a related script to me - check wikepedia and see what you think. The style of the tiger is also very reminiscent of that part of the world.

A couple of the letters - the first 2 on the top row, and the fifth on the top and first on the bottom row could definitely be Thai, as could the "57" in 8th place on the top. Not sure about the others. It doesn't look like Burmese - a more logical choice - to my untutored eye but I'd say definitely from that area (one of the scripts derived from ancient Khmer.)

Good luck with the ID. Let us know what you find!

Peter

Hi Peter

Thanks for your opinion! I was also thinking about India or Thailand, either Hindi or Urdu.

Will keep you informed.

Kjell

[ksg]

It looks like Sanskrit: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit

Hi Jens

I thought Sanskrit was no longer in use but Hindi or Urdu might come from it.

Now it suddenly hit me !! Take the picture to an Indian restaurant and ask around.

But I would also like to know something about the contract and the user.

Will keep you informed.

Kjell

[Chris Boonzaier]

I have the same rifle.

I think Dave Danner or Ed Haynes would be the naturals for this.

[Michael Johnson]

It's definitely not Hindi, and it doesn't look like Urdu to me. It's definitely Thai Thai alphabet.

This catalogue seems to have further information Siamese SMLE

Edited July 17, 2006 by Michael Johnson

[peter monahan]

Michael knows. There's a surprise! Well done, Michael!

Peter

[CroppyBoy1798]

The rifle was made by BSA during the inter war years, it was a contract rifle made for the Siamese Goverment, the marking is otherwise known as the 'smiling or laughing tiger', as for what the text means I havent heard a translation as of yet.

[ksg]

Thanks for your replays! Got some new information on some of the writing. Apparently it's difficult to read old Siamese writing for younger Thai people. The first line is either a bridge?? or a street and got the number 6, so an address makes sense. The last part on the lowest line is a year, 2462 after they're calender which is 1919 in ours. This make sense on a Mk III* export.

Kjell

[Tom Morgan]

The cocking-piece in the picture is the round, button type. This was changed (among other things) when the Mk III* was introduced in 1915, and the replacement design was a serrated slab.

The changeover was not immediate, with some rifles being built using the former parts until stocks ran out. But I would have thought that by 1919 the flat cocking-pieces would have been the only ones available. I wonder if the factory stopped fitting the earlier part while they still had stocks left, and these were used in these export models?

Tom

PS - I see that the rifle shown in the link Michael gives, also has a round cocking-piece.

Edited September 4, 2006 by Tom Morgan

[ksg]

Thanks Tom!

The rifle is out on loan at the moment, but I will check all parts, nr.etc when I get it back and post some more pictures. I also got some persons who have better Thai contact than me, checking out the writing. There might be mixup parts and the year might be when it was brought into Siamese service?

Kjell

[Tom Morgan]

Kjell - with a rifle manufactured 90 years ago (and especially if it's seen service) it wouldn't be unusual to find that the numbers don't all match! It may have been re-barrelled more than once, for example. I have a 1915 Mk III* and none of the numbers are matching.

Hope I'm not teaching my grandmother to suck eggs, but the main differences between the Mk III and the Mk III* were:

Cocking-piece changed from round button type to flat serrated slab

Windage adjustment on rear sight omitted

Long range volley sights omitted

Magazine cut-off omitted

There were some "transitional" rifles manufactured using the last of the pre-existing parts. For example, some rifles have no volley-sights, but do still have the indentations in the woodwork where the forward volley-sight would have fitted.

Incidentally - how do you make the marks stand out white like that, so you can photograph them??

Tom

PS - it seems that your rifle is a rare one. These rifles were ordered for the Royal Tiger Corps. The king of Siam had been to Military College in Britain before or during WW1 and presumably became familiar with the SMLE then.

Edited September 5, 2006 by Tom Morgan

[ksg]

Kjell - with a rifle manufactured 90 years ago (and especially if it's seen service) it wouldn't be unusual to find that the numbers don't all match! It may have been re-barrelled more than once, for example. I have a 1915 Mk III* and none of the numbers are matching.

Hope I'm not teaching my grandmother to suck eggs, but the main differences between the Mk III and the Mk III* were:

Cocking-piece changed from round button type to flat serrated slab

Windage adjustment on rear sight omitted

Long range volley sights omitted

Magazine cut-off omitted

There were some "transitional" rifles manufactured using the last of the pre-existing parts. For example, some rifles have no volley-sights, but do still have the indentations in the woodwork where the forward volley-sight would have fitted.

Incidentally - how do you make the marks stand out white like that, so you can photograph them??

Tom

PS - it seems that your rifle is a rare one. These rifles were ordered for the Royal Tiger Corps. The king of Siam had been to Military College in Britain before or during WW1 and presumably became familiar with the SMLE then.

Hi Tom

Thanks for your reply. I.m fully aware of the minimum chances of matching parts. But...Got it a few years ago for less than nothing because the seller thought it was some Asian copy. Until recently I have hardly looked at it, but now this is getting interesting. I fired a few rounds whit it in last month and it shoots well.

For making the marks stand out; Use ordinary blackboard chalk, shoves up well and easily removed if you if you want to.I learned this when I was collecting Japanese swords to easily photograph inscriptions.

Kjell

PS

My other No 1 Mk.III and Mk.III*

[attachmentid=52803]

[Tom Morgan]

PS

My other No 1 Mk.III and Mk.III*

Those are all yours?? I had no idea. I'm not worthy......

Tom

[ksg]

O yes you are, you know what you are talking about. It's not the amount of weapons that counts but what you know!

Kjell

PS. I got one more Mk III, an Indian. Will post it when I get it back next week. If it's of any interest.