Turkey MY FIRST BB&Co TURKISH STAR

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gentlemen

I would like to take this opportunity to show off my very first ever Turkish Star,

obtained from our very own G.M.I.C member Mr. Robert (Bob) Hunter.

It arrived in the post this afternoon, all the way from the USA, nicely packaged.

I have been after one of these for a long time, and when the chance occurred after reading the posts on the recent G.M.I.C. lottery, I grabbed it.

Its a fine looking piece in my eyes (never mind the chip of the old block ) somebody has to give these battle scared relics a good home

Please see attache pictures.

Maker Marked to the rear "BB&Co"

Kevin in Deva

[Kev in Deva]

Rear View, and once again thanks to Bob.

Kevin in Deva

[Gerd Becker]

Nice, Kevin. There is a rumor(don?t know, if its more), that these "BB&Co" pieces were the actually awarded examples.

Gerd

[Theodor]

Congratulations, Kavin, these are nice ones!

And great rumor, Gerd, mine is also BBQ

[Ed_Haynes]

There is a rumor(don?t know, if its more), that these "BB&Co" pieces were the actually awarded examples.

Interesting rumor. Any evidence for it?

So the Ottoman Government awarded these? To whom? Says who? On what basis?

Absent some evidence, this sounds like forum chatter.

[Kev in Deva]

Congratulations, Kavin, these are nice ones!

And great rumor, Gerd, mine is also BBQ

Hallo Theo,

thanks for the comment please show a picture of yours too.

Kevin in Deva

[Gerd Becker]

Interesting rumor. Any evidence for it?

So the Ottoman Government awarded these? To whom? Says who? On what basis?

Absent some evidence, this sounds like forum chatter.

No evidence, Ed. I was hoping, one of the more knowledgable members would chime in and confirm it. I remember to having read something about these "BB&Co" pieces, i.e. they were the actually awarded examples, but i neither can find the source, nor i do remember, who said it where.

To your other questions, i am not entirely sure. It was allways my impression, that these were awarded by the Ottoman Government to all participating troops of the fights on the Gallipoli peninsula. Or am i wrong?

[Josef Rietveld]

There are different opinions. Some say that the official issue were the 'ugly' laquered ones. others say that there existed two versions laquered ones for soldiers, a better enamelled gilt pieces for officers. i think all silver pieces are private purchased. till now nobody has found out something about BB&Co as far as i know. most think ist was an german manufacturer. There is also the opinion that BB&Co produced only the pin-system and supplied different manufactureres. that is, so say the followers of this theory, the reason why there are different BB&Co-variants.

i say: Pick the theory you like best

regards

Haynau

[Theodor]

Lets think about that:

Many Bulgarian officers got the Turkish star. Very oftenly you can spot it on the period photos. From time to time the orders surface on the antiques market /speaking the whole country/. From the ones that I have seen or heard of so far, 4-5 were enameled, only one was the original Turkish painted star.

And speaking about the enameled examples, I know of only BB & Co, no other maker found here /just to underline, these are my own obsrvations on a very low number of awards, that surfaced in the last few years/.

So, from my mentioned poor observations, can we guess, how the Bulgarians got the BBQ? I doubt they would go and buy replacement orders - rather they were given these from the Turks??? Or, is it possible that the Bulgarians could be supplied with replacement orders through the Germans in the Balkans? /though, again, it's quite unlikely they would spend money upgrading the awards, from our point of view it's money wasting /

Well, just some thoughts, sadly none of the recipients is alive to remember those details

Kevin, here is my example, I forget some thingsthe next day after purchase, but still very happy with that one!!

Edited October 3, 2006 by Theodor

[Ed_Haynes]

Interesting . . . .

But isn't the question we ought to be asking is what awards are found in Ottoman groups (Tim?). It is an Ottoman award. This is something I fear many other "Central Powers" collectors sometimes forget. The fact that prettier, fancier, sexier post-war awards were available for private purchase should not be allowed to distort our understandning of what the Ottomans awarded.

We also ought not ignore the significant scholarship that already exists (both in the various good pieces in the JOMSA).

An interesting discussion, thanks . . .

[Theodor]

Please, clarify this for me: were the orders "upgraded" from painted to enamel version during the war, or postwar? If this "beautification" was done postwar, this automatically eliminates the Bulgarian officers from that process. In other words it would mean that they have originally received enamelled orders

Edited October 3, 2006 by Theodor

[Ed_Haynes]

Please, clarify this for me: were the orders "upgraded" from painted to enamel version during the war, or postwar? If this "beautification" was done postwar, this automatically eliminates the Bulgarian officers from that process. In other words it would mean that they have originally received enamelled orders

I don't think we (quite) know this yet. Were Bulgiarians (or any others) incapable of purchasing their upgraded prettier awards by mail-order in the inter-war years? Somehow, I suspect not. Though I could be wrong.

We need to know much more, to put it simply, and to know it (in the specifc context of the Harp Madalyasi, 1915-22) in the context of the Ottoman Empire. Thereafter, the award belongs to the realm of any European (or Turkish) fantasy jewelery who wished to make a profit on the open market.

And these may have been wartime (European) upgrades or postwar upgrades. This is an important question that needs to be answered from research (not guessed-at), though it does focus on what the evidence suggests were unofficial awards.

Edited October 3, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Ulsterman]

There have been groups out there of BB & Co. awards that are clearly marked on the packets "awarded to such and so by Emire whoozit on x.v.16". We can be reasonably certain that BB & Co. were war time awards by their ubiquity. If they weren't issue, they wouldn't show up in Bulgarian flea markets with regularity-and of course in old WW1 vets' effects. They captured them and kept them.

We know by Bannermans' catalogue that they were around as of 1922 (the year the print was set, although I think the catalogue was Spring, 1923).

Also, I believe there are BB & Co. pieces in Turkish groups. I have a reprint of the bloody ridge diary as well as Eturin's book and as I remember, both indicate BB & Co. were awarded in theatre pieces.

Given the turkish archives still exist-it might be possible for some intrepid soul to discover the contract for these.

[Tim Tezer]

I am firmly in the camp that the BB & CO. pieces were awarded by the Turkish government. Although I live in California, which makes it difficult to come up with first-hand evidence, I am assured by collectors in Turkey that they have seen numerous Turkish uniform and medal groups with BB & Co. stars. Even the photo posted in this recent thread on GMIC shows a Turkish officer wearing what is certainly an enameled version, which appears to me to be a BB & Co. example:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=11350

Theodore's comment about the BB & Co. pieces in Bulgaria echoes what I've heard from collectors in Turkey. If these were private purchase, then at the very least they were sold during the war, sold in large numbers, and sold to Turks, Bulgarian, and Austrians as well as German recipients. However, it seems more likely to me that they were issued to them, not sold.

Also, Gerd asked if these were simply campaign awards for Gallipoli. That is not the case. They were military decorations, and were awarded until the end of the war in 1918, and believed to have been used by Mustafa Kemal's Turkish forces during the Independence War as well.

Tim

[Kev in Deva]

I am firmly in the camp that the BB & CO. pieces were awarded by the Turkish government. . . .

Also, Gerd asked if these were simply campaign awards for Gallipoli. That is not the case. They were military decorations, and were awarded until the end of the war in 1918, and believed to have been used by Mustafa Kemal's Turkish forces during the Independence War as well.

Tim

Hallo Gentlemen,

thanks to your posts with regards this fascinating, (all be it looked over) award, as Tim, says, there tends to be a belief, that this was only awarded for Gallipoli, because of the mainly seen pictures of German's who were awarded them, however, if that were the case, then there were a heck of a lot of Austrians and Bulgarians serving on the penisular as well as the Germans during the Gallipoli Campaign.

In my opinion, if it ranks with an EK2 then its a valour award, and acts of valour were not just confined to the headlands around the beachheads of Gallipoli, after all German Naval Crews were awarded it as well as Flyers, in the Axis forces.

By the way Theo a very nice one

Kevin in Deva.

[TerryG]

Here are mine, all BB+co. For what it's worth, a collector/dealer in Istanbul showed me a nice, large format book which lists many different types of Turkish awards. Obviously written in Turkish but I was told this book stated that the painted stars were awarded to soldiers and the enamel ones to officers.

[Theodor]

Kevin, as far as I know, there were no Bulgarians at Gallipoli. All the Turkish orders were given to the Bulgarians for the fighting elsewhere in the Balkans, a friendly gesture, but for sure in no connection to Gallipoli.

[Kev in Deva]

Kevin, as far as I know, there were no Bulgarians at Gallipoli. All the Turkish orders were given to the Bulgarians for the fighting elsewhere in the Balkans, a friendly gesture, but for sure in no connection to Gallipoli.

Theo my friend exactly my point, they had to be given for more than Gallipoli

Terry G, WOW I think I will have to look for more examples too.

Kevin in Deva.

[saschaw]

Thanks Gentlemen for this great thread. I've yet heard some times thet the BB&Co were awarded pieces but haven't had any evidence, but no I think I can be sure it's not just a rumor.

Are there prooves for the rumor(?) that officers got enamel stars and soldiers painted ones?

BTW, there are two kinds of awarded enameled ones, on the one hand the BB&Co, on the other hand very strange looking ones. I hope anyone who has a picture of one of these unterstands what I'm talking about ...

[Richard Gordon]

I like these awards too and pick them up when I see an interesting one. (Only have two mind so I haven't been very successsful )

I have a BB&Co with full silver finish and no enamel damage and also this rather nice '800' example.

Rich

[TerryG]

Not mine sadly

[Kev in Deva]

Not mine sadly

WoW thats what I call a screw back nice picture Terry G.

[Ed_Haynes]

Almost looks Soviet with those "ears" (behind which there'd be QUIET a tale?!).

[Tosun Saral]

Dear Gordon your Turkish medal has a date on it in Arabic numbers 1333 which is equal to 1917. (thats all I can read in old Turkish script.) We call this medal "Harb Madalyasi" the War Medal

Originally this medal is awarded those heros of Gallipoli 1915. The medal is carried on the right brust just under the brust pocket. I add some photos of Turkish officers with that medal.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php...asc&start=0

You can ask my friend Altay Atli for your questions:

http://images.google.com.tr/imgres?imgurl=...6lr%3D%26sa%3DN

In a/m page Altay gave an image of Altay made a mistake for 1333 he said 1915. I will talk with him.

Edited October 30, 2006 by Tosun Saral

[TerryG]

Welcome to the forum Tosun Bey. I took this photo in Istanbul not so long ago...I wish I could get one of these for my own collection but the man who owns this does not want to sell (the chain is in a frame, hence the reflection on theglass)