Mecklenburg-Strelitz StK I.

[Steve K.]

Hello

I'm looking to gather opinions on this Strelitz StK I. The date font is different from Godet examples I've seen and those found in Peter Ohm-Heironymussen's book "Die Mecklenburg-Strelitzer Orden und Ehrenzeichen". The pebbling in the background is uniform and consistant, and the cross is coined with no casting faults I can detect. With only 21 of these awarded, I'm more likely to believe this is a post 1918 re-strike. Any and all opinions are appreciated.

[Steve K.]

Reverse

[David Gregory]

Steve,

There are an awful lot of Imperial pin-back crosses with a pin arrangement similar to this on eBay all the time.

Take a look at http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=3219 and compare yours.

David

[Steve K.]

Hello David

Here are better photos of the hinge and catch. The scans can be deceiving. I look through German and US Ebay twice a week and I am well aware that great fakes exist, but I'm not convinced yet that this is one of those (but I could be wrong!! ).

Steve

[David Gregory]

Steve,

The close-ups suggest that it doesn't have so much in common with the usual suspects on eBay.

I had one just like this early last year from a dealer here in Germany, and also looked as though it had lost some detail due to polishing. The dealer claimed it came from the estate of a general, but he refused to give me his name since he had promised the family he would not reveal any details in order to prevent them from being pestered by collectors. After having it in hand for a few weeks and discussing it on another forum, I sent it back. It stayed on the dealer's site for at least six months, but now seems to have been sold. I have good scans of it somewhere and will post them when I find them.

One with a slightly different hine/pin arrangement sold just before christmas in eBay auction #6588280661. The seller told me that the cross was part of a large collection of Imperial awards that originally came from J?rg Kalies.

Kai Winkler is offering one as item number 24261 at https://www.nordheideversand.de/ which seems to be slightly different again, especially as far as the obverse detail is concerned.

If I recall correctly, just over 400 crosses were bestowed, so real ones must be pretty rare. Dave Danner shows another type and quotes a maximum of 419 awards on his page at http://home.att.net/~david.danner/militaria/strelitz.htm

I have a cross that has a pin arrangement which seems to be from the 1930s and a centre disk with the monogram like the "Tapfer und treu" cross on the ribbon, instead of the inscription. I'll post some images of it later.

One day I would like to find an example of this cross that I am happy with and add it to my collection. The hunt continues!

David

[Steve K.]

Hi David

The "TAPFER UND TREU" StK I. without the bottom date are also difficult to find. Here is the only one that has made it to my collection. It is buntmetal as you can see the base metal brassy color showing through on the highlights, so again I believe it may have been produced 1920s-1930s. It's alittle beat up but there are no casting faults and good signs of construction details. From the Ohm-Hieronymussen book, he reports "Fur Tappferkeit" I. Klasse 21 awarded and 398 "Tapfer und Treu" I. Klasse awarded. That is the source from which I've been getting information.

The cross from Herr KW's site came to my house for a short time, but was quickly returned. The obverse details are horrible and show signs of casting, although he does not agree. I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole, and the resulting conversations with him on this cross and our dealings surrounding the return has strained our relationship.

I've seen maybe 3 StK I. Klasse on Ebay.de over the past few years. The only one I liked sold about 2 years ago for nearly 800 USD and it came with a case. My bank account couldn't afford it at the time, so I had to sit and watch it go to someone else.

Edited January 6, 2006 by Steve K.

[David Gregory]

Steve,

I have just checked the images I saved of the cross that I returned to the dealer and see that it is the same one that you show at the beginning of the thread. The specks of patina in the corners of the arms, etc. are identical. On reflection, I should have recognised the cross straight away. I am sure I have seen another one like this on eBay in the last 6 months or so, but I don't have any record of it.

Below are images of a cross that I assume dates from the 1930's. Instead of the usual inscription, it bears the Duke's monogram. If nothing else, it is probably a replacement piece and will do as a filler until I find an earlier one I am happy with.

The iron cross collectors will probably be able to make an educated guess on when it was made based on the pin.

Any comments would be most appreciated.

David

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[David Gregory]

Here are some details of the hinge and catch.

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[Daniel Murphy]

David,

The Cross with the cypher and the stamped hinge plate was made in the 20's or 30's. I have an EK1 with the same set-up.

Dan Murphy

[Stogieman]

David's last post shows typical 1935-45 pin, hinge, catch as seen on WW2 made EK1's and a few similar items.

[Steve K.]

Dave

I like that cross!! Hinge is definately from the 1930s, but I've never seen a cyphered AF with crown I. Klasse. I never knew these existed!! I thought these were only seen as II. Klasse. Also, I've only seen I. Klasse crosses having the date incuse-relief.

As far as the first cross I presented here, all I can say is that I'm glad you returned it to the dealer! I have not seen this hinge on any faked crosses yet, but maybe I should look more closely at those fakes on Ebay. I looked at the one Ebay auction you noted in your first post above and the pin/hinge combination on that cross is different from mine, and also the date font is not typical. If you look at the "4" in the date on mine you will see that the arms flare out along any length, giving the font a 3-D feel. The font used in the fakes are very "block-like", squared, with not much detailing. Just my observations...and why I like my cross compared to others.

Cheers,

Steve

Edited January 6, 2006 by Steve K.

[David Gregory]

I like that cross!! Hinge is definately from the 1930s, but I've never seen a cyphered AF with crown I. Klasse. I never knew these existed!! I thought these were only seen as II. Klasse. Also, I've only seen I. Klasse crosses having the date incuse-relief.

Steve,

I like it, too. I completely forgot to mention that I also have a certificate of authenticity from Detlev Niemann confirming that, in his opinion, the pin/hinge arrangement dates from approximately the 1930's or 1940's. To be honest, I don't know what to make of it, other than that it was almost certainly made as a replacement piece to be worn by a veteran some time before 1945.

eBay seller inofout offered a cross on German eBay last year for several thousand Euros. Not surprisingly, it didn't sell. I suspect it was a good one, but the price was just silly.

Patience is not normally one of my virtues, but I hope it will pay off in my search for a good Mecklenburg-Strelitz cross and, even more importantly, more document groups. I am still undecided about the one I returned, but prefer to wait until one turns up that I am completely happy with.

Thanks also to the others for their opinions.

David

[Steve K.]

Here's the cadillac version of the Strelitz Cross for Distinction in War, I. Klasse. I would have given my cat's left paw for this cross. I must have missed it by seconds....sorry sold!

Note the really nice hardware on the reverse, the even stipling to the background of the central disk, and the incuse-relief date and its font.

(Photo courtesy of Niemann?, Hamburg)

Edited January 20, 2006 by Steve K.

[Stogieman]

And unfortunately, I cannot say I grabbed it for you. What a stunning cross this was and easily the BEST piece on this week's update. Yes, better than the RK w. Oaks. You want rarity gentleman, here it was. Just like last Weeks Osmani Order Set & docs that I did manage to grab........ each week, there's always one exceptional item, If you can find it.

[JensF.]

I have some problems with the first two crosses posted here. Their pinback looks like these seen on the well known new fakes.

[David Gregory]

Jens,

I had the first cross shown above for a few weeks last year. I think I know the fake crosses you mean, which I had the opportunity to inspect at Kassel, and although the images posted by Steve might seem similar, the ones I handled are certainly not the same.

These side and oblique views of the pin arrangement show the difference. I cannot comment on the second cross.

David

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Edited January 22, 2006 by David Gregory

[David Gregory]

Some more views of the pin arrangement of the first cross when it was in my hands:

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[dond]

I guess we all tried to get the one on Detlev's update. So who got it????

Don

[Stogieman]

Good question. That cross screams "Godet" even without the stamp on the needle!

[David Gregory]

This award is one that I have been trying to find for some time.

By a supreme effort of self-discipline (at least for me), I passed on the one shown by Steve at the start of the thread and convinced myself to wait for a wartime piece, or at least one with the two hooks as described by Hessenthal & Schreiber, to come my way one day.

In the meantime, I will just have to do with the one I showed in post #7.

Is Godet known to have made any pin-backs (I'm thinking more in terms of EKs) with the extra hooks after 1918?

[Stogieman]

Hi David, yes. There are known Godet 1914 EK1's with "side hooks". They've even been seen with the "luxury" case to accomadate the hooks! I think Detlev Niemann sold one last year, or the year before. I've seen 3 that I recall, only one with the case. But all were marked "Godet-Berlin"

[David Gregory]

OK, I confess. I got it.

If you want to get that special item on Detlev Niemann's Friday update, you have to be quick and you need a certain amount of luck.

Last Friday was like Christmas come early for me. In order not to tempt fate, I don't normally talk about items in my collection until I have actually received them from the seller. I hope you will understand why I didn't mention anything until now.

Here is the cross that I have been looking for for some time. To be honest, I really didn't think I would ever find one as described by Hessenthal & Schreiber with the two hooks on either side of the pin.

It has obviously seen a certain amount of wear and tear.

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[David Gregory]

The reverse also displays a few signs of being knocked around.

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[joe campbell]

david-

if you are TRULY concerned about the wear

and tear, then put it in a box and send it to me...

VERY NICE addition.

joe

[David Gregory]

As you can see, the only mark is "Godet Berlin" on the pin. From the feel of it in my hand and the nice dark patina, I assume it has a very high silver content.

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The image below shows Leutnant der Reserve Rau of Mecklenburgisches Grenadier-Reiment Nr. 89 proudly wearing his EK1 and Mecklenburg-Schwerin MVK 1st class on the left, and an as yet unidentified fellow officer probably of II. Bataillon wearing his EK1 and Mecklenburg-Strelitz 1st class cross. The picture was probably taken during a parade held behind the Somme front in the second half of 1916.

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