Show your Imperial officier' shoulderboards

[Chip]

Rick,

Correct! It belonged to Ralf von Rango, who commanded the J?ger Regiment Nr.3. I have yet to find out why he chose to wear the state colors of Baden, when two of the battalions of the regiment were Bavarian, one was Prussian and the fourth was Prussian/Baden. Perhaps he was a Badener himself.

Christophe,

Why do you think that the 83.IR boards rare?

Chip

[Guest Rick Research]

Schutztruppen Southwest Africa Oberstleutnant boards from the Herero-Hottentot War 1904-06 period. Most of the time the colony's commandant was only a Major, and it was only during that war that senior officers served-- about a dozen of them.

[attachmentid=12277]

Since both imperial navy summer boards and ST East Africa used white underlay, which way the /s went will indicate whether a board was navy or colonial by the /s alternating or not for the same black or red-white sides.

[Chip]

Regarding my J?ger board, could anyone tell me when Ralf von Rango was promoted to Oberst? I think he was an Oberstleutnant when he was the commander of J?ger Rgt. Nr.3.

Chip

[Deruelle]

Hi,

Chip, my shoulderboards of IR Nr. 83 is not rare like a Garde regiment, but I have got the hat of the same officer. It's only rare for me to have items of the same officer. Like you kno Waldeck is a small country and only one regiment.

The hat

[Deruelle]

Rick,

Your shoulderboards is so beautiful .

Have you put a name on it ?

Christophe

[Guest Rick Research]

SWfrica boards, no-- one of about 6 officers of that rank.

Chip:

von Rango formerly of JB7 was promoted Oberst 27 January 1917 K.

[Paul R]

Chip,

Here are those close ups of the board

[Paul R]

back

[dwmosher]

Christophe:

Are you sure that this cap is identified to a hauptmann? The cockades are for other ranks. Also, this cockade could also be used by the II Btl. (Reuss) of the 7. Thuringisches Inf.-Regt. Nr. 96 as well as the III Btl. (Waldeck-Pyrmont) of Inf.-Regt. Nr. 83.

Regards

Dave

[Chip]

Christophe,

I see what you mean about them being scarce, in that there were not other troops from Waldeck. I once had a wartime enlisted issue cap marked to the 83rd. Like Dave says, your cap could not belong to the same person who owned the boards. Maybe same unit, but not the same man.

Paul,

Try as I might, I cannot see any colored "v"s in the cords of your officer's board. The "II" and the pips look to be from the period, but the add-on piece at the bottom and the button do not. If it had some colored "darts" I would say it was from a Bekleidungsamt. As it stands, I am not sure what it is. Sorry.

Chip

[dwmosher]

Just for fun, the Litzen

Christophe

Christophe

I looked at this thread again and I just noticed the litzen you had posted. Although German, they are not imperial M-1910 officer collar tabs. Here are a couple to compare with.

Regards

Dave

[Guest Rick Research]

I can't figure out how to make a "quote" reply that includes a scan, so here's the Print Screen copy pasted for proximity comparison rather than trying to flip back and forth 4 pages:

[attachmentid=14413]

The difference is?...

If these are NOT officers M1910 tunic collar patches, what are they? Guards privates pre-war overcoat tabs?

[Chip]

Rick,

First of all, you are correct, these are enlisted Kragenpatten. You will notice, if you can make it out, that Dave's collar Litzen are in matt silver thread. This enlisted version has white cotton Litzen. M07/10 enlisted Litzen were sewn directly on to the collar with no backing material. These, therefore, must be overcoat tabs, which were still being worn when the war started.

Chip

[Ed_Haynes]

An interesting thread . . . on something about which Inknown absolutely nothing.

Years ago, not even sur ehow, I acquired a pair of shoulderboards. Have always assumed they were "German", but never knew. If I never ask, I'll never know, I guess.

Here they are. As I say, I have no clue. (Not the world's best scan, sorry.)

[dwmosher]

Ed

I don't have a great deal of knowledge of post 1919 insignia, but IMO these are not German (definately not imperial military). I know that several of the other european nations used Russian braiding for shoulder boards, though. I'm presuming that the braid is in gilt?

Regards

Dave

[dwmosher]

I don't believe Christophe's litzen is imperial. The only enlisted pre-war white collar tab with litzen I could find was D.R.26. Unfortunately the Spiegel is in red. I don't know of any pre-war imperial enlisted white litzen with a white Spiegel, no matter what the backing color. Here is an un-used set

Dave

[dwmosher]

Here is a better shot of an officer's M-1910 litzen on a white backing.

Dave

Edited October 30, 2005 by dwmosher

[Guest Rick Research]

Ed-- yours in #64 are U.S. Army officer full dress, and despite the "General" appearance were worn (when they were worn) by all ranks, I believe. They usually have the bars or leaves or colonel's eagle on top for the actual rank. So these are either never issued OR date from early enough that they indicated Second Lieutenant when no bar at all was worn by that rank-- try the U.S. Forum about more precise identification than my memory. (Check out the "Other Countries" waaaaay back pages for some Bolivian examples! --

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=690 )

We need to congure up Christophe: I thought from earlier postings that his tabs WERE woven wire and not cloth.

The shape and size preclude Third Reich. So, struggling in deep waters where I am Sergeant Schultz, the objections are

1) material (silver wire versus cloth?

2) the woven central "light" rather than cut out bars showing patch material in the center?

Sea Battalions must have had some YELLOW in there?

These are the kinds of details about which I know nuzzing, NUZZZING with only wartime photos of enlisted men to go by. Can't tell center of patch from any such photo I ever saw, though I knew the cloth versus wire and overcoat shape versus direct tunic collar attachment.

[Ed_Haynes]

Thanks, Rick. Enquiring minds (and inquiring ones too) are at peace.

[Chip]

Rick,

The backing for the overcoat tabs of the See Bataillon was white, but the Litzen were yellow. Like Dave, I cannot find any prewar unit with an all white insignia. Here is an example of the 1910 version of the See Bataillon enlisted collar Litzen for the tunic. The center section is field gray.

Chip

[dwmosher]

Ed-- yours in #64 are U.S. Army officer full dress, and despite the "General" appearance were worn (when they were worn) by all ranks, I believe. They usually have the bars or leaves or colonel's eagle on top for the actual rank. So these are either never issued OR date from early enough that they indicated Second Lieutenant when no bar at all was worn by that rank-- try the U.S. Forum about more precise identification than my memory. (Check out the "Other Countries" waaaaay back pages for some Bolivian examples! --

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=690 )

We need to congure up Christophe: I thought from earlier postings that his tabs WERE woven wire and not cloth.

The shape and size preclude Third Reich. So, struggling in deep waters where I am Sergeant Schultz, the objections are

1) material (silver wire versus cloth?

2) the woven central "light" rather than cut out bars showing patch material in the center?

Sea Battalions must have had some YELLOW in there?

These are the kinds of details about which I know nuzzing, NUZZZING with only wartime photos of enlisted men to go by. Can't tell center of patch from any such photo I ever saw, though I knew the cloth versus wire and overcoat shape versus direct tunic collar attachment.

Rick

You are right in thinking Sea Battalion collar tabs have yellow in them. They were found in the litewka and in the overcoat. Here is an SB unteroffizier litewka showing the yellow litzen, white Spiegel and NCO tresse on the bottom (actually it is supposed to be on the top). Perhaps the tailor reversed the tabs when they were applied. M-1910 SB officers collar tabs would look just like the one I posted above ( the piping on the collar would be white though). I know very little about TR, but could Christophe's tabs be for a TR enlisted infantry waffenrock?

Dave

[Deruelle]

Hi everybody,

I have bought the collar tabs several years ago to a great dealer in Germany with the Baden Officer's shoulderboard.I'm not a specialist of Imperial uniform and I need to learn more. I don't know if it can be Imperial. I trust the guy whom I have bought them. Do you think it is a repro Dave ?

Regards

Christophe

[Chip]

Dave,

The shape of the two tabs are not the same, and thus not reversable from one side of the collar to the other. The tailor must have put the Tresse in the wrong place?

Christophe,

Your Kragenpatten are not reproductions. I am not sure what they are, but they definitely do not go with the beautiful officer's boards that you have shown.

Chip

[dwmosher]

Chip

You are right on both accounts. the SB tabs were not reversable, so they were made that way, and I also agree that Christophe's collar tabs are correct for something, just not for his great boards.

Christophe

Actually, the collar tabs that would go with your M-1915 boards are M-1915 bluse double litzen....

Regards

Dave

[Chip]

To keep the original thread going, here is another interesting piece.

Edited October 30, 2005 by Chip