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Stogieman

Prinzen Iron Crosses

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The Prinzen=Gr??e Format iron Crosses are usually the epitome of the jeweler's art and were expensive to buy. I invite all to share their examples. I've had quite a few over the years and some of you own ones I had. So I'll start off with this beauty that lived here once!

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I love these.

It seems to me that Prinzen are a real pain in the but. Noone "knows" which are good or not, and most prinzen discussions lead to anything of fine quality being accepted as "good", and anything not of great quality landing in with known fakes.

I think it is one of the fields where you just have to accept that a quality piece has a good chance of being original, bt noone can say with 100% certainty.

Of course, 1870 Prinzens are even worse !!!!!!

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..and an unmarked EKII Prinzen. Despite the fuzzy photo, the details on obverse and reverse are very sharp. Note the core on the front doesn't -quite- fill the entire frame.

Les

Let's try using -this- photo....

Les

Edited by Les

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Gentleman, very nice examples! Anybody else have any? marshall, you out there somewhere?

Yes - yes I am .... but I'm 'avoiding you' at the moment since you beat me to that glorious, absolutely stunning enameled Prinzengr??e frack bar!!!!. :P:love:

If I hadn't been so greedy and tried to get the cased Roth & Neffe EK2 at the same time, maybe..just maybe it would be winging its way towards the sunny climes of NZ. Another day maybe...

I don't have any Prinzen pieces.... and I heartily agree with Chris's comments... a very grey area of the EK field.

Having said that - and for what it's worth - the prinzens posted here so far are well documented (Heyde/Bowen etc...) and ones I would be happy to have in my collection.

I suspect however that the prinzen EK2 posted by my friend Les above may be one of 'the ones' we discussed recently on WAF.... and I would personally be a little cautious about that one.

Here's YET ANOTHER example of why on ebay... an absolute rarity by anyones standards, but this auction will not top 400 euro for a set-up that should be worth closer to 1500 euro... this type is just too prolific for (my) comfort - this one is the 1870 version of Les's.. Prinzen/Oaks/WHS

Great thread..

Marshall

Edited by Biro

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Dave

I apologise if I appear to be coming across as some sort of Prinzen expert - I can assure you I'm not... but I have studied these reasonably in depth and have reason to beleive that Dave, yours is merely the 1813 'version' of a questionable prinzen doing the rounds. I can show you some key areas on your piece that will match both 1870 and 1914 versions of the same...

I will await Stogies word as to whether this is the appropriate thread to post these observations or not...

For starters, check the reverse of the 1870 prinzen in the ebay link I posted above...alternatively, if you or Les want to PM me, I will forward you my studies..

regards

Marshall

Edited by Biro

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Dave

I apologise if I appear to be coming across as some sort of Prinzen expert - I can assure you I'm not... but I have studied these reasonably in depth and have reason to beleive that Dave, yours is merely the 1813 'version' of a questionable prinzen doing the rounds. I can show you some key areas on your piece that will match both 1870 and 1914 versions of the same...

I will await Stogies word as to whether this is the appropriate thread to post these observations or not...

For starters, check the reverse of the 1870 prinzen in the ebay link I posted above...alternatively, if you or Les want to PM me, I will forward you my studies..

regards

Marshall

Hello Marshall,

Yes please do,I look forward to see your observations. Also the Prinzen is not mine,I borrowed it just to photograph....so it won't break my heart if it is fake :P:cheeky:

Dave

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Have to agree with Marshall, the stepped-core 1914 Prinzens need to be discussed...

Marshall, fire away on the "stepped cores" and other suspect types, either in this thread or a parallel one. I acquired mine quite some time ago that came as part of a larger deal, and didn't pay all that much for it. (Less than a standard 1914 EKI fetches these days.) Also, I consider myself a novice at Prinzen collecting, and am all ears when those with information want to comment.

Les

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Les,

Here is an ebay auction:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...item=6555028126

You will find various prinzen from 1813-1870-1914 with the exact same core on ebay much more often than I am comfortable seeing. They also match a core that Detlev has listed as a fake. Marshall has the photos handy and I am sure he will post them.

Marc

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Les,

Here is an ebay auction:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...item=6555028126

You will find various prinzen from 1813-1870-1914 with the exact same core on ebay much more often than I am comfortable seeing. They also match a core that Detlev has listed as a fake. Marshall has the photos handy and I am sure he will post them.

Marc

Marc,

Thanks for the link. I've been checking out the archives on the "other" Forum, and found Marshall's photos and commentaries. (Good work there Marshall !) I'd like to suggest that Marshall re-post his comments on -this- Forum so they become part of the archives -here-, in the event that the other site ever goes under, loss of backup information through server and related crashes, etc.

I mean no disrepect towards Detlev, but often he renders an opinion without much in the way of explanation. Yes, he has built his business and reputation on "knowing things" and getting him to share why he says something is akin to asking him for free money (perhaps?). Posting images and running commentaries on sites such as this invite and allow feedback, as well as a source for people to read and learn on their own without a take it or leave it mind set. On a Forum like this, we try to convince people (if that's possible) and Marshall is -very- (and that's an understatement) good a using comparative photos relying on solid examples.

Les

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i strongly agree with les.

this is a most interesting subject to me, and

yet there is precious little material regarding

these little buggers.

and marshall is absolutely wizard at

photographic comparisons.

bring it on, biro!!

joe

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Hey Guys, absolutely the place to talk about these. You can always comment in the "show your ------ threads"! Even I was recently fooled by some blurry photos of an 1870...... and evn in hand I had to toy with it for 2 days before I really made up my mind.

As an alternative, feel free to start a "Let's study the new prinzen fakes thread" as well.... whatever you guys feel the best way to discuss it is fine with me! More power to you!

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Hi Gents

First up - thanks to Les and Dave for sending me pics of their Prinzen pieces to use in this compilation... I only wish the circumstances for there use were different...

It's incredibly frustrating of course to have images of such varying quality... a discussion like this should be based on near forensic quality pics - and sadly, as is always the case, by the time I've edited, processed and downsized whatever images I've managed to get my hands on so they fit the size allowed by the site, much of the detail has blurred out - and 'peering' at a blurred image is NOT the type of science we need.

Nonetheless, I think you'll get the picture.....

Just so there's no ambiguity about WHICH prinzens exactly we are talking about, here's the best examples of the three versions of this PROLIFICALLY available Prinzen EK2 with stepped core and distinctive small crown that I have available.... one from each of the three wars...

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There are many factors against this type in my opinion....

- First and foremost, on any given week, I could find you at least two of these on ebay or with dealers etc..

Like any rare item (the 1914 WHS springs to mind...) the first sign of a rat is the availability. Things don't bode well on that front for these Prinzens.. just check the ebay links posted above..

- Second, they have been posted by Niemann as his fake of the week... and that in itself is often enough to turn most collectors off...

- Third, you'll notice a distinct lack of imagination when it came to designing the dies for these Prinzens.

Don't forget, from Dave's 1813 to Les's 1914 we are talking about a span of almost 100 years .. name me one manufacturer who has not had multiple die changes for their product as they progressed from one war to the next... and yet the reverse of these pieces remains essentially identical.

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But even if you ignore the core altogether (and I'm sure there are many of you who will swear that there are minute difference to all those cores above...) the MOST damning observation is in the frames of these pieces.

Youll note that there is a distinctive 'flashing' that has not been removed from the beading before assembley, on ALL THREE pieces, spanning near 100 years of production...

That really is taking the argument for using 'leftover stock from the previous war' to the extreme... and I'd go as far as to say an impossibility...

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That really is taking the argument for using 'leftover stock from the previous war' to the extreme...

.....especially when you consider that if you rotate each piece in the relevant direction to get the flashing in the 6 o'clock position, you'll find that all three frames share identical beading characteristics....

Check the 4 inner corners, and the top right corner for starters... again - on pieces that were supposedley produced MANY DECADES apart from each other...

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And things wouldn't be complete without a first class version... (in this case, of the 1870 version...)

I have these on file with makers as diverse as JGuS, I Wagner & Sohn, A Gross, 13 Lotig, etc.... and yes... the beading characteristics of the frames are IDENTICAL to that of the second class version... it dosen't matter which second class version, 1813... 1914... they are all the same....

You'll notice also that on this random selection of 1st class Prinzens, there is an odd paint flaking effect... the 'round circles' of flaking paint are common, but not always present on the first class I have seen.

Edited by Biro

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So while I am not in any way a figure who has the clout to say.. 'these are definitely fakes'... I've drawn my own conclusions from these observations... and just like Mr Niemann, I would not buy one for any amount of money...

Feel free to comment, and if close-ups of other areas are required, I'll do my best to post them for you.

Hope this has been helpful...

Marshall

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