Jump to content
Gentleman's Military Interest Club
TerryG

Tugra

Recommended Posts

And I repeat it once more, in a large set of an aristocratic family I found a BB&Co TWM with the red 'box'. All the decorations, documents and cases are originals, without any doubts.

And therefore I assume, that the Lieutenant General got his TWM from BB&Co with this paper bag:

Uwe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And I repeat it once more, in a large set of an aristocratic family I found a BB&Co TWM with the red 'box'. All the decorations, documents and cases are originals, without any doubts.

And therefore I assume, that the Lieutenant General got his TWM from BB&Co with this paper bag:

Uwe

Hi,

This is a good point.

Either BB&Co also used the official package (red carton box) or he was able to receive the original box.

But I believe since he is an aristocrat, a better quality TWM was given to him in the official red box. (I hope :speechless:)

demir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Terry,

the left part of the picture in my Post (12) is reflected. Without reflection you can see, that it is the same indentation on your TWM, but only a part:

Uwe

It appears I have to accept the majority verdict on this metal mark on the back as being the Sultan's tugra. I can find no documentation to support any other claim. I can find no research that discusses this mark and having any other meaning...yet. :ninja:

However, like the lone standout in a jury room full of guilty votes, I have to continue to point out an irritating observation. Why is the Tugra reversed? When every other metal-smith, silver-smith, and gold-smith for centuries have had their metal stamps in reverse in order for the mark to show "correctly", are to believe that the Turkish metal workers "goofed" on this fundamental and didn't want to fix it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doesn't all this simply confirm that this is indeed a reverse mark left by the Tugra being pressed into place during manufacture? If you look at my Star, it also has a small part of the same reverse Tugra in the very same place. A true maker's mark would more likley be found in slightly different locations/orientation. The presence of the letters E.S. on Uwe's Star would seem to indicate a non-Ottoman/Turkish manufacturer?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doesn't all this simply confirm that this is indeed a reverse mark left by the Tugra being pressed into place during manufacture? If you look at my Star, it also has a small part of the same reverse Tugra in the very same place. A true maker's mark would more likley be found in slightly different locations/orientation. The presence of the letters E.S. on Uwe's Star would seem to indicate a non-Ottoman/Turkish manufacturer?

Terry is right.

If it had been a Turkish Manufacturer then E.S would have been the old Ottoman script (Arabic letters) instead of Latin letters.

demir :blush:

Edited by demir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

I think it is the image of the TUGRA created by pressure.

ES sorry I have no clue!

Best wishes

demir

That's what I think.

We have (some of us) discussed this almost a decade ago as I recall (another time, another place :cheers: ). My opinion was that the die stempel was made from a different medal, another, earlier, original star and the impression from the original medal was (accidentally?) left in.

When this happened is a good question. It could have been an original primary die reused as a backing stempel, or maybe something else.

I would welcome input from older collectors as to when/where the "reverse tugra" THM medals were obtained.

Stempel= German term for the bottom/rear piece of a die press "mold". I am unsure as to the english word for this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doesn't all this simply confirm that this is indeed a reverse mark left by the Tugra being pressed into place during manufacture? If you look at my Star, it also has a small part of the same reverse Tugra in the very same place. A true maker's mark would more likley be found in slightly different locations/orientation. The presence of the letters E.S. on Uwe's Star would seem to indicate a non-Ottoman/Turkish manufacturer?

Indeed, it does. And yet it is not the same mark. Post 12 is ideal for seeing it.

If you would superimpose the backside metal mark over the obverse Tugra you can see that they don't line up. Simple Photoshop manuever would prove this out. The "Stand" part of the Tugra is much narrower and it doesn't match the obverse.

Additionally, the outer and inner "Egg" are there, but the "Tughs", "Arms", and "Fringe" are all truncated or omitted.

I can't offer an alternate explanation at this time. Likewise I don't know how to explain the "E.S." mark.

If this "E.S." does indicate a non-Ottoman/Turkish manufacture, then we have a non-Turkish badge with a Tugra mark made from a specially designed Tugra marking tool that changed the Sultan Signature's Tughs, Arms and Fringe, but didn't bother to reverse the tool image so that it would appear correctly on the piece.

Puzzling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the back of of the srewback Star one can easily see the pressed out reverse image of the Tugra. It is not a makers mark.

Regards to all.

(Demir has got lovely Stars, tebrikler)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Mahoni,

I am unbeliavebly happy to see this lovely collection :beer:, and beautiful presentation cases.

I am also a little bit jealous! :blush:

Congragulations, hope that we can find more too add our collections.

Is it possible to post bigger pictures of the Tugras on Slatzeks?

One has a block Tugra, the other has a Tugra which shows emaille through it. (I call these kind of Tugras "telkari"

All the best

demir

Edited by demir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Demir,

thank you for your comment on the collection.

Those two Turkish war medals are made by the same maker Sedlatzek, possibly for two different market or at different periods.

I will try to get better pictures later on.

Saygilar and good hunting for new medals.

Kimaho

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×