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Hi Rob!

On the unmarked one I posted/inquired about(reissue type 2/Unofficial type1/Repro type 3), I guess you have to be able to handle them and compare in hand to really tell the differences. The photo I showed is of course by "that" seller and knowing that he habitually uses stock photos to sell his stuff, I have not dealt with him after my first (and last) dealing with him.

As most don't provide a size dimension, how would you tell without being able to handle and compare in a side by side comparison? I went back to take a closer look at the photos on this one and though the strike seems weak on both examples, I do see some signs I don't like on the one I posted photos of (again, not my medal).

The overall soft look to the details, does lead me to believe this is a casting of an original. Looking at the red circles in the below photo, you can see the weaker than normal strike in the letters, but also the edge striations appear to be file marks (red arrows) while the top circle appears unfiled. Also note the Staffa area where there appears to be flaws at both ends.

Tim

Tim,

The unofficial type 1 has been produced in a number of different metals, with a thin or thick staffa suspender. In addition there are very minor reverse differences as well and it is this variety that has some minor reverse differences that seems to be the model for the reproduction type 3. The repro type 3 I have is the same as the one you posted here.

I don't have any philosophical disagreements with reproductions per se, as long as they are advertised and sold as so. If the item was displayed as an unofficial type 1 and sold as such then there is an issue. I would agree that the only way to tell the difference between an unofficial type 1 and its variants, the reissue types and the reproduction type is to handle them. The unofficial strikes are of a much darker base bronze metal whereas the reproductions are on a much more shiny and lighter bronze metal. The unofficial strikes tend to be thicker with the reproduction type 3 being noticeably thinner. When I have time I will measure the depth of my examples for comparison. The re-issue type 2 is immediately noticeable as being different.

I would agree that all the marks that you have identified on the medal in question would indicate it, and mark it, as a reproduction type 3 (according to Mr Laslo's book). It is still collectible but it would not be an unofficial type 1.

Dependent on work schedules I shall locate some specimens of the re-issue type 1 and re-issue type 2 for your reference as well as another unofficial type 1 with a different staffa. When I have I will post pics.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Rob

Edited by RobW

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Tim and others,

The italian vic re-issue type 1 is almost identical to the standard issues. It does, however have a shallower level of detail, is produced in a much lighter bronze material. The planchet is narrower than the official issue while the staffa suspender is much wider than the official issue. Diameter is 36 mm.

Regards,

Rob

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To all,

The re-issue type 2 has been seen in a number of different base metals. I have a shiny bronze (this example) as well a darker brown dull bronze specimen, and it has also been seen in a lighter toned flat bronze as well as in a silver finish. Note the die differences between this type and the official issues. Diameter is 36.4 mm.

Hope the pics help.

Regards,

Rob

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To all,

Here is a nice small italian vic mini group comprised of:

* War Merit Cross

* Commemorative War Medal 1915-1918

* Commemorative Medal for the Unification of Italy 1848-1918

* Interallied Victory Medal

The italian vic is 18 mm in diameter and has the Orsolini 'MOD' and 'Sacchini' marks on the bottom of the obverse.

These pics have also been posted on the 'Italy - WW1 Victory Medal' thread under that specific country area as well.

Close-ups to follow.

Regards,

Rob

Edited by RobW

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Here are the close-ups.

The italian vic mini has been seen in a number of different diameters ranging from 12.5 mm - 18 mm. Even though this particular mini is 18 mm in diameter it has quite a great deal of detail. Such a lovely design.

Regards,

Rob

Edited by RobW

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My two Italian with emphasis on the ribbon to the left ;)

cheers

Peter

Hi Peter I believe the ribbon to the left is from an Italian Fascist Period Medal.

Kevin in Deva. :cheers:

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Hi Peter I believe the ribbon to the left is from an Italian Fascist Period Medal.

Kevin in Deva. :cheers:

Hi Kevin,

I'm not the person to contradict that opinion, but apparently there are others with a different view. Any additional help establish the origin would be greatly appreciated :beer:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58224&highlight=Victory+Medal

cheers

Peter

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Hello Peter,

I have seen a number of italian victory medals, from different manufacturers (Johnson, Sacchini, and F.M. Loriol-Castelli) with this type of ribbon. The ribbon that you have displayed, on the one on the left, has also been referred to as the 'imperial style' ribbon. I have heard references that the vic medal was 're-used' with this style ribbon to commemorate the concept of the 'Italian Empire' during the rule of Mussolini from1922 onward.

I am making enquiries with some fellow vic collectors in Italy and will post a reply when any detail becomes available.

Regards,

Rob

Edited by RobW

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Hi Rob,

Any news from your Italian friends regarding the ribbon?

cheers

Peter

Hello Peter,

I have received a partial response but am waiting for the last person to reply. I should have a response back from him this weekend.

Regards,

Rob

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Hi Rob,

Any news from your Italian friends regarding the ribbon?

cheers

Peter

Hello Peter,

The responses I've received from fellow collectors in Canada, the United Kingdom and Italy, all point to the same conclusion that it was an unofficial use. It was also indicated that the use of such ribbon on an Italian interallied victory medal could have been due to a lack of the correct ribbon at the time but I think this is unlikely.

To commemorate the institution of the 'Italian Empire', the Impero medal was created. The ribbon that you have displayed on the vic on the left was used on that medal. There is one design known that has at least 4 different reverses. Faded ribbons generally do not show the depth of the colours, with the green the first colour to fade as shown in the pic below.

As mentioned before I have also heard that the Italian victory medal was 're- used' with this style ribbon to commemorate the concept of the 'Italian Empire' during the rule of Mussolini from 1922 onward, and this would be consistent with the period.

Details and images of the 'Impero' medal and ribbon (look under the heading of 'Italian Empire') can be found at:

http://www.saintjohn...Page6/index.htm

There were quite a number of unofficial Italian medals that were issued by the Blackshirts, including a number of Regimental medals and they also used this ribbon style among others. While a lot were worn most were not made official. The Blackshirts were Fascist paramilitary groups in Italy during the period immediately following World War I and until the end of World War II. Blackshirts were also known as the National Security Volunteer Militia (Milizia Volontaria per la Sicurezza Nazionale, or MVSN).

One of the main references on Italian medals by Alessandro Brambilla mentions the use of such ribbon in footnotes in that book. (Alessandro Brambilla, Le Medaglie Italiane Negli Ultimi 200 Anni, vol. 2, Milan, 1997)

Either way it is an unusual re-use of an existing medal with a commonly enough seen Fascist period ribbon. It would be an interesting side-point in a victory medal collection, and I have one in my collection.

I hope this has helped.

Regards,

Rob

Edited by RobW

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Hi Rob,

Thanks a lot for a great detective work and a superb elaboration :beer:

cheers

Peter

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To all,

Seeing as I mentioned certificates and for those yet to see them, here is the Italian Ministry of War (Army) victory medal award certificate. The certificate measures 25 cm x 35 cm. It is large enough that it had to be scanned in two parts and then re-joined.

It may not be immediately noticeable but there is a circular embossed authority seal just above the left hand (as viewed) of victory. This is in addition to the stamped Military District seal on the bottom of the document.

This and the Navy award certificates have such lovely detail.

The Italian Ministry of the Navy vic award certificate will follow.

Regards,

Rob

Edited by RobW

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Here is the Italian Navy vic award certificate. It is larger than the Army certificate measuring 27.5 cm x 39 cm. It was also large enough that it had to be scanned in two parts and re-joined.

This one was issued as late as December 1931.

This is the more difficult of the italian vic award certificates to obtain. While they do appear on the market it is much less frequent than the Army variety.

Regards,

Rob

Edited by RobW

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Hello Gentlemen -

Here are my two Italian Vics. One small and one big.

The mini differs most obviously by its ribbon, suspension and of course, the detail.

The million dollar question to those of us without "the bible" is which of these would the full size be .... ?

Italy: Official Type 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, Reissue 1, 2, Unofficial Type 1, 2, 3, 4, at least 3 Repro Types.

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And the reverse of those medals ...

The intricate detail to these medals is only really appreciated once one starts looking really really closley...

and the doves

Regards

Thomas

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And the reverse of those medals ...

The intricate detail to these medals is only really appreciated once one starts looking really really closley...

and the doves

Regards

Thomas

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Hi Thomas,

The Sacchini-Milano is listed as an official, type 1 in Laslo's reference.

Tim

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Hello Gentlemen -

The mini differs most obviously by its ribbon, suspension and of course, the detail.

Hello Thomas,

The italian vic mini was produced in a variety of size diameters, with both cylinder and staffa suspender. Unsigned and signed varieties also exist.

Your mini, with the wire suspender, was produced during the 1950-1960's period and is also becoming scarcer despite being a later striking.

Regards,

Rob

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Hello Tim,

...The item you have displayed is actually the reproduction type 3, according to Mr Laslo's reference. It is a contemporary copy of the unofficial type 1 and has been seen in a number of different metal finishes. The differences are described in Mr Laslo's reference book.

More pics to follow on the re-issue types and repro type 3 when I have time.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Tim and all,

Back to the medals here are some pics of an italian repro type 3.

While not evident in this pic the medal is considerably lighter in finish than the usual darker bronze of the unofficial type 1, and is of a similar finish as the example posted in #76 of this thread. As can be seen there are minor reverse die variations compared to the unofficial type 1.

Regards,

Rob

Edited by RobW

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Hi Rob,

Is that Italian Vic another one from our friend in Germany?

Tim

Hello Tim,

No; the Italian repro type 3 came from a fellow forum member! I obtained it recently from an FJP Auction and am very happy with the piece. I now have a couple of the italian repro type 3.

It is always handy to have spares in case of trades etc...

Regards,

Rob

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Hi Rob,

Thanks a lot for a great detective work and a superb elaboration :beer:

cheers

Peter

A delayed response to Peter,

For the sake of completeness here is another better full length scan of an italian official type 2 (S. Johnson-Milano) vic with the 'Impero' style ribbon.

Regards,

Rob

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Hello Tim,

...While there was a further unofficial strike produced by the firm of Casa Buttuller in the 1940s, in addition to the unofficial type 1 and 2 already listed in Mr Laslo's reference, it does not look like this piece at all. This later Buttuller stirke was very fine and precise and has been seen with both a thick wire and ball suspender.

Regards,

Rob

Tim,

I have a couple of this other unofficial Buttuller strike with a thick wire and ball suspender. When I can track them down, amongst the myriad of boxes, I shall post a pic.

Regards,

Rob

Edited by RobW

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