Stogieman

I'm clueless and appreciate everyone's input. I snagged it because that's my impulse when I see something I've never seen before! At the risk of sounding silly... what exactly is "Panzeraufklarungstaffel" ?? Thanks!!

Sweet. I cannot remember the last time I saw a 2. Kl. kreuz with the jubilee button. Very nice indeed!!

Prosper makes an interesting point, many of the earliest ribbons for both the '39 EK2 & '39 KVK had ribbons that tended towards the orange/red spectrum. It's really nice to see one in a mounted group. I have often wondered if the color is simply an age issue, or if they were actually made that way. I tend to lean more towards it being an age issue. in any event, GREAT bar Nick!!

Look, I'll make this easy on you.... Start with the comparison pair. The badge on the left is a copy. The badge on the right is real... casting flaw in the hinge well and all... Now, using the photos shown, start going over every single detail, every single point. Start comparing the dimensions and the appearance of size/depth/detail from badge to badge. These are not cobbled together images. Two badges, one scan for the front. One for the back. Currently, there's a number of collectors who will "never touch a flawed badge" as well as collectors who will never touch a Bavarian badge with a crown well of this shape. Here's an interesting, old discussion from another Forum: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...ad.php?t=132666 Again, if you believe every one of these is fake.... mail them to me. What are you waiting for? They're fake. Aren't they?

I'm sorry Brian, I have no clue what you're talking about. The flaw appears on both badges, in the same approximate place.

I guess I'm the only one that can see clear differences between the badge in the other thread and this one. Also, I'm rather surprised that no-one wishes to comment on the "flaw" on the smooth-back Bavarian Pilot!!

Interesting observation Don, but I can't think of a single Luftwaffe Unit Badge that has a swastika... Fran?ois?? Can you??

Not really a "Panzer Unit Badge", now is it? Me thinks Luftwaffe Herman G?ring Division Badge. What say you?? Pretty darn rare, that's what I say!

Now... look very carefully at both badges.....

Reverse of the pair of Bavarian Pilot Badges:

I will add reverse photos this evening, if possible. Very busy today/tonight with Holiday Cheer!! Jaba, please post dimensions (in mm.) of your badge. Should be measured from the top of the cross to the center of the wreath/bow, and from the top of the cross to the tips of the bow. Width as well across the middle please. Thanks!!! If you prefer, please feel free to PM me these details. Again, in my experience, there are many factors to be considered. Weight & dimensions are critical. 99.9% of the fake Bavarian badges are significantly smaller than real ones.

... and just to further confuse things, I prefer the "flat-back" P?llath Badges over anything else....

OK, which one of these is? why? are you sure?

Example of a different Bavarian Badge, original in my opinion?, or not in my opinion?:

Hi Brian, your little snippets of photographs from different angles prove and/or demonstrate nothing. Clearly, if your badge was worthless and fake, you should send it off. Why asking $1,000.00 for a worthless item might be construed as "innappropriate" behavior. Or, are you saying your (fake) badge is worth a $1,000.00 to you??? Apart from the different lighting and different angle of the lens, I think it's quite clear that there's two (2) very different items, clearly not from the same die, clearly struck at different depths into the backing plate. Even from the tiny little postage stamp images you have "photo-shopped" together I can come up with four (4) clear differences in the die used for each of these examples. And that's with little effort at all.

I'd agree, not even close. ground-down 1914. Frame, width of flange, beading, width of rim all wrong, based on photos shown.

Hi Jason, I'd have to agree... looks like a newer one. Ask The (Truly) Evil Twin? AKA Rick Research to post his. he has a darn near flawless, period-made trifold.

PS! Prosper's comments regarding Brit toolmakers is very, very interesting. I wonder if these were actually made earlier?? It seems it was the late 1970's when the big, sudden 'boom' of badges started to filter into the market....???? Or was it more accurately the early 1980's?? I was studying other things at that time and have only interviews with older collectors to go by. The bulk of which always (or at least most frequently) said late 1970's...

Let me be a little clearer... I don't care for ANY of the Prussian ones with this type of flaw. We are discussing a Bavarian Badge. It's easier for me to concentrate on the piece at hand, not paint with a broad brush... hence my earlier comments. The presence of a flaw in a Prussian badge does not dictate all Bavarian badges with a similar flaw to be fake... The point here, is that when someone made a fake die, mold, tool (insert manufacturing method/equipment of your choice) it was made from an original piece! Bavarian badges are so rare, so few authentic ones around, that I cannot understand people leaping one way or another on any of these. I've handled/owned quite a few Bavarian Badges, maybe even a lot..... my total is six (6).... out of about 500 fakes that I would (classify as such by me) pass on in a heartbeat. I think you need to start on the front and look at some critical detail of the plane, wreath and crown.... and no, I'm not about to publicly state them. Sorry! That's proprietary as the saying goes.... I simply don't think there's enough information out there to know for sure yet (strictly with Bavaria)..... I do not think a large enough pool of known originals is available to work with. Or at least that I have personally had physical access to. In the interim, please send me all the ones you don't like, don't want! I'd be happy to add them to my pile of suspects.... ;>) In fact, just to be on the safe side, better ship all suspected aviation badges to me for my personal use and evaluation. I'll let you know if any are good..... or not. I will safely dispose of all suspicious badges at no cost!! ;>) Also. John has a very important point to consider..... I don't think anyone, unless they have iron-clad belief in their own personal ability to discern with 100% confidence, should be buying any aviation badge!! I will stand my ability to do that with Prussian badges against anyone. With Bavarian.... not a chance I'd be comfortable making that decision for anyone, including myself (mostly).... I consult many others on Bavarian. The flip side, I'm not going to shout fake on a Bavarian piece that there simply isn't enough information on. I like an awful lot about the front of this badge.... In the past, the discussions I have watched concerning Bavarian die-flaws the crown well had a different shape........ not the "upside down u" like on this one. Again, I don't think we know enough to be sure in this very specialized arena.

Send them to me................. please.......................... they're bad................ mail them all to me....................... Pretty Please! ;>)

Gentlemen, I'm still not convinced on this theory and I think it an error to judge any bavarian badge by this one characteristic alone.... many things, many quality points must be taken into consideration. Be aware of the fact that (IMO) the die flaw exists in BOTH types of crown/hinge wells. This simply cannot be the sole determining factor. Neither can the shape of the well, or the name.... If you disagree, please send me all of your badges like this/these/those now for "proper disposal".

Hi Don, I love the backing. first time I've seen that maker!

Welcome! An impressive start!

One can drag the horse to the water.... but you cannot make him swim.

Not only is the badge fake, it's a bad fake as it does not really come close to anything to do with a Juncker Badge. The crown is wrong the cross atop the crown is wrong the shape of the hinge well is wrong the pin is wrong the color of the gilding is wrong the wreath is wrong the details on the front are wrong the maker mark is wrong, to include wrong name, wrong letter font and wrong moon do we really need to go on?? I could....