filfoster

'nada'?

no one has photos for this?

When were enameled officer Guard stars introduced for wear on Foot Guard officer and General officer pickelhauben? Were earlier versions without enameling? I am particularly interested in the version of this worn during the 1870-71 war.

I have posted this on the uniforms forum but wanted to cover all the bases. Does anyone have a photo of any Party or Eastern Territories or General Government officials wearing the double breasted undress tunic with a medal bar? I seem to recall having seen this before but it was evidently not 'regulation' and I cannot find any photos that show this.

This may belong in the medals and decorations forum but we'll start here. Were medal bars worn with any of the double breasted tunics, usually worn as undress? I have scoured my limited resources for any pictures of Diplomatic Corps or NSDAP or Eastern Territories higher ups wearing medals with their DB jackets and have come up short. I seem to recall a photo of either Franz Xavier Schwartz or one of the Gauleiters wearing this combination but cannot find it now. It must have been uncommon but was it ever done, e.g. receptions, etc.?

I thought so but it's odd that he denies himself wearing the higher grade of the Red Eagle and the neck badge which was very striking and a popular medal to wear, although perhaps not with the other 'heavy' (superior) neck orders he is wearing in the photo.

It is interesting that there are few if any photos of him wearing the corresponding neck decoration for this award. The 'motto' ring around the center medallion also does not look like the dark blue enamel of the Grand Cross, so this photo seems to pre-date the later award. Does anyone have a photo of him wearing either the breast star or neck decoration for the Grand Cross award?

The new Verlag publication "Der Deutschen Generale" (English version available) answers this: Parades, specific ceremonial occasions. This book has fantastic color photos of surviving examples of virtually every aspect of the uniforms of generals of the German states, for the period 1888-1910 or so, before the introduction of the field gray service uniform.

Hoyden R wrote: "In 1812, the French issued the "Bardin Regulation" which describes the undress jacket as a single breasted undressed coat with one row of buttons, upright collar and turned back cuffs. This is what the Undress Coat that you have above is based on . The Prussians introduced in 1814. You may also want to locate a copy of David Nash's The Prussian Army 1808-1815." Thank you! This is what I wanted. Your post demonstrates a deep knowledge of this subject. It is unfortunate that the readily available sources (well, the Osprey books are certainly readily available but I did not think to look into this volume. Perhaps the 'staff' would have been a good clue to do so), do not have a simple explanation for a uniform that by its use in the period portraiture, was popularly worn by high ranking Prussian officers. I will try to scare up a copy of Mr. Nash's book.

Hoyden R, these are good references but for the RUSSIAN army of that time. Blucher was a cavalry general of the PRUSSIAN army and the uniform guides/references that I have found all describe double breasted kollets. Yet, as shown above, the senior generals and the king himself, were painted wearing the single breasted dark blue tailcoat with red collar and Swedish cuffs. Can anyone please direct me to a reference for Prussian uniforms of this time that describes a single breasted coat with plain collar and cuffs for generals?

No one interested in Napoleonic Prussian generals? Figure painters? Uniform collectors?

King Friedrich Wilhelm III and Graf Gneisenau. The king's litzen would suggest a regimental uniform but again, all my references for Napoleonic Prussian army officer uniforms call for double breasted kollet and no mention of a single breasted frock or surtout.

Well-known portraits of Field Marshal Blucher and other famous Prussian generals of the period show them wearing a single breasted, dark blue habit with red collar and Swedish cuffs. I cannot find a reference that identifies this uniform, as they all refer to the double breasted full dress or undress uniform coats. Yet, the evidence exists in these portraits that this uniform was worn. Does anyone have more information on this order of dress? Was it commonly worn in the field or for walking out (as it was evidently worn for portraiture)?

There is an oft-published photo of the Kaiser, flanked by Hindenburg and Ludendorf, where the Kaiser is wearing a Kleiner rock with collar tabs that are on a dark, presumably red, patch. And, as you point out, generals, and certainly the Kaiser, wore whatever they wanted.

Most if not all the studio photos of generals in uberrocks were pre-war. It is my understanding that the uberrock was never produced in field gray. It was a pre-war undress frock coat that was superseded post 1910 by the pale gray Littewka or later, the very similar field gray kleinerrock. (I believe the uberrock co-existed for a time, pre-war. with the Littewka). Photographs and paintings that appear to show a 'field gray' cloth color are likely explained by lighting and artistic license. Paintings, even by the celebrated Hugo Vogel, are notoriously poor references. How many Hindenburg paintings show his Third Foot Guards collar litzen with red underlay, instead of the correct yellow, for example? Also, general officers uberrocks were usually of a very dark shade akin to a navy blue, almost black color. I have not seen a Bavarian officer's uberrock but suppose these may have been a lighter shade but the OP concerned Prussian uniform.

By HUGH: Thanks for that. At a casual glance, I'd have guessed that it was a ceremonial dagger. I know the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine both used daggers / dirks, but what about the Wehrmacht? Not my field and probably a good subject for another thread. As I understand it, subject to correction by the greater minds on this forum, in World War One, Naval officers did wear daggers; there was no Luftwaffe as a separate branch; it was a part of the Heer although there were Navy pilots, particularly commanders of the Zeppellins and the very large 'giant' aircraft like the Zep. Staaken. WWI German Army officers, I believe, wore only the sword-no daggers- as an edged side arm, with appropriate State portepee. Of course, officers were permitted pistols as functional side arms. Now by WW2, I suppose covered in another forum, virtually every uniformed German, including a streetcar motorman, had a particular uniform and dagger. We've all seen the fancy coal miners' get ups.

The interimstab was the informal 'everyday' version of the Field Marshal's baton, worn with service dress. It resembled a cane with a fancy, symbolic silvered and gilt headpiece, through which a metallic corded lanyard and tassel, worked in the State colors, passed near the bottom of the headpiece/handle, where it joined the shaft. Each German state that had a military component and a rank list that included a field marshal (Bavaria, Saxony, etc.-usually the sovereign and other kings or Grand Dukes) had their own similar but different versions of this and the parade batons. The Bavarian ones are quite beautiful. Of course, the various German state kings and Grand Dukes bestowed these honors on each other, and to other monarchs of the German royal clans, such as Ferdinand of Bulgaria, like challenge coins are exchanged today. Here's a link to Hindenburg holding this gadangus. (HIs interimstab! Get your mind on a higher plane, please). http://www.akpool.co.uk/postcards/24018393-kuenstler-ak-grabendorff-r-von-hindenburg-in-uniform Hindenburg and Mackensen were sometimes photographed without a baton but it's a job to find a WW2 German field marshal in front of a camera without one.

Here's another topic of little or no interest: When would a Prussian field marshal of the era 1870-1918 carry the parade baton as opposed to the interimstab cane? Yes, the obvious 'parade', but were there other occasions when FM's would tote their fancy velvet baton? Inquiring minds want to know. Well, not many, maybe. As a corollary subject, some photos of WWI FM's show them sans batons of any kind, which is a marked contrast to their WW2 counterparts, who seem to have bathed and slept with at least an interimstab. Just saying.

This is the 'old style' Prussian General Officers' full dress or 'parade' uniform. It was worn on parade and gala occasions, with full medal bar, sash and neck orders, etc. The 'full monty'.

If any members have even a single example of this button that they are willing to sell, please contact me. Moderators: I hope this post does not violate any rule against solicitation or outright whiney begging within this forum. P

Rudi: Many, many thanks! Yes, this is the same parade baton that Ludwig appears to be holding in many photos, including a good one in the Jan Kube book of many years back. Question: Do you recall if it was this pattern on all sides? I must assume so. It is interesting that a photo of a military review in Germany interwar, of Princes Rupprecht and Leopold, show each holding Bavarian parade batons of different appearance. (Yes, I know they were both also Prussian field marshals but these batons are distinctly not the Prussian pattern). The batons they hold are not only different from the Ludwig III but also from each other! It may have been that Bavarian field marshals, particularly of the Royal House, were allowed a lattitude in the design of their own batons. The top interimstab appears to be a Prussian one, which would be correct also as Ludwig III was made a Prussian field marshal. The middle one is clearly the Bavarian interimstab.It is the only color photo I have ever seen, and has more detail than any photo I have yet seen. I will treasure these photos as they are likely the only ones I will ever see, in color and close detail!

Nada? This demonstrates the difficulty of finding what is essentially a very 'ordinary' looking button. I had the same trouble finding French and Italian general officer buttons-it took half a decade! (Still looking for British Field Marshal KC buttons and Admiral of the Fleet buttons).

This really is a small niche interest, isn't it?

Does anyone know of a source for late-era Austro-Hungarian general officer buttons, the ones worn on the 'German' everyday pike grey tunic or the white gala tunic? These are not overtly 'military' at all but I have not been able to find a single one that is unattched to a uniform. I am attempting to replicate the German dienstrock and need at least one to make others. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.