JimZ

Oh boy.... I must say the order depicted in the pics above does remind me of an English saying to the tune of - "Give a dog a bad name and hang him!" Rick, I see it from the same angle. I have called the items fake as they are not officially issued medals. In a way they also cannot be called non official Soviet orders because in fact the Soviet government is now defunct. They are an "identical" copy of an existing order issued by a previous government. However, the body issuing them is as you said not enititled to do so. As a collector of Soviet items I will draw my line and strike such medals out. However I want to be respectful to anyone who wants to collect them as post soviet curiosity, and in future, my calling any so called "Umalatova" awards as fakes is totally within the context of original official government issued Soviet Orders and medals. Jim

That's exactly what I meant. So once the irreproachable service medals came into effect they would apparantly be awarded without fail in 10, 15 and 20 years with orders to follow. One other thing I am not clear about.... did 10/15/20 years service automatically qualify you for these medals or did your service to the armed forces really have to be irreproachable? Jim

That is just it.... As the awarding of orders for service would devalue the orders in question, they minimised this devaluation for awards for 10, 15 and 20 years for which there was now a series of medals for irreproachable service. Beyond that however Orders would still be bestowed (Red star/Red Banner/Lenin) contingent on the rank and years of service. Now the extent and the progression of orders beyond the 20 years as Dave suggests is interesting.... when was a red star issued and when a red banner? What rank exactly would call for one order as opposed to another. I am also curious to see if anyone knows of Orders awarded for service were handed out before the 10/15/20 year medals were actually awarded. In simple words... after the service medals were instituted, does anyone know of a 10/15 and red star/redbanner award for example?? Jim

The highlighting and the stresses are not mine so please do not take me out of context. If I have expressed critisism of the moderator in this instance it is because I feel that my original post was partially taken out of context for which I have nevertheless apologised in any case albeit my critisism. In any case I find it hard to keep the legislation and the government that passes it seperate and distinct from each other and as a result my comments may be taken as critisism of both. Rest assured however that as I appear to be causing political offense to some parties I will refrain from further participating in this thread! Causing offence remains the least of my intentions and no matter whether I critisise either the legislation or the powers that be, it appears that the Stolen Valor Act will probably be here to stay.....and that is the sad bitter bottom line.... what a pity indeed! Jim

By all means....long but still interesting reading! Once again... as a collector we all feel free to collect anything from insects to medals to coins to guns to whatever under the sun or above it.... asteroid fragments even. It is after all a case of what turns us on and what really does it for us. To clarify my post - I do not own any "Umalatova" awards nor would I be selling them! However these can be seen on one of the foreign auction sites as I indicated in my PM reply to you. Just setting the record straight that I am not at all involved in these awards... well my posts denouncing them as fakes is after all sufficient evidence. The only thing is... as long as an non original award is sold as an original I will denounce is as a fake if I believe it to be so. If it is sold as a copy or repro and I notice it, I still feel some obligation to record the serial number on the forum in case anyone looking for the real mc coy is taken in and buys this when what he wants is the genuine soviet era item. Also, if any award can now qualify as Umalatova..... again I ask - where to we draw the line. What is Umalatova and what is just plain fake. Now can all fakes fall under the Umalatova name? I am sorry but I do not make that distinction. As a collector of genuine soviet awards I cannot recognise non soviet government awards as official especially where these are identical to the ones in my area of collecting. Instead I see them as a threat to newbie collectors who may want to take up the same field of collection. Of course their quality is hardly threathening but there is still a market for these items! I do agree with you fully about collectors going into the hobby blind. The resources are out there and they will only increase. The forum members also have a vast wealth of info to share and that is also important. At the end of the day as I said, one must draw a line somewhere.... where to do this without displeasing anyone?? All the best for the New Year! Jim

Hi Dan, Since post war times Orders have always been awarded for long service. Lets face it, not all the much combat was going on after that and yet Orders of Lenin, Orders of the Red Banner and Orders of the Red Star amongst others were still issued in large numbers some of which as long service awards. I reckon there should be some logical progression from long service medal onto orders although this would be largely contingent on a) the number of years of service and b) the rank held by the person in question. At least this is my understanding of the system. Mebbe some of our research guys have more ammo on this topic...... Jim

Hi Andreas, I never made the immigrant/friend/relative connection but it makes sense. As for the sellers having 3 or 4 accounts - definitely! That is something I noticed especially when the medals keep cropping up on the same grey leather background That makes it a bit obvious in the long run doesn't it?! But from the October Revolution thread in this same forum I start to fear that even fakes may start to get fancy names.... like "Umalatova awards". Granted that these may be collectible in their own right, where does one draw the line! I far one do so at "Official Soviet Governement Issued Orders and Medals". Anything post 1991 falls out of that defintion by a mile where I am concerned. Jim

OoV Please post a close up of the obverse itself and not the ring. The definition of the obverse of your copy looks like it leaves much to be desired but seeing it up close and personal would help decide on that Regards Jim

Well.... I guess you know where to find it then Dan Granted that many of today's medals do lack the complexity and beauty of the Soviet era ..... I restrict myself to official government issued Soviet ODMs but hey - if collectors are interested in unofficial or post soviet decorations ... whatever your poison! Just as long as this Order is clearly outlined as not being an official Soviet Government award I am very happy.... call it what you may as will I Jim PS - Just our of curiosity.... how many people out there actually collect these so called "Umalatova Awards" and how many of them are actually buying this as the real Soviet Official Order?

Stogie, My apologies if my comments or wit displeased you. However, in spite of your selective moderating, I still firmly believe that the act will eventually be signed by the top person in the USA whose service record has more than the odd shadow. amongst other things. Mine is not a personal attack on the US government or the US president. By God I have better things to do and I also personally believe in what Churchill once said about every country getting the government that it deserved. But as an impartial observer, I really think that a) the Stolen Valour Act is a real pain in the behind..... not for me but in general as I am untouched by this act - I have my own bone to pick with the Russian Authorities but I sympathise with you guys on principle - and b) it seems so evident to me that this is a case of people in glass houses throwing stones .... not because they are selling or trading US medals or insignia but because valour is so much more stolen in cases where "people" parade in combat uniforms or have perhaps even worn medals they have not been entitled to. I believe that you do not just wear a combat uniform or dish out salutes - you earn the right to wear it and salute!!! Valour is stolen so much more evidently in so many more ways and it is done in an in your face manner and collecting US medals and insignia is the least of this problem. However, what can I say - Feel free to yet again selectively moderate my post if it displeases you in any way and to repress my views on the act and the powers that be who are ultimately responsible for signing it. But if you do for one instant believe that my point or agenda is political then you are completely missing the point. But notwithstanding any differences in our argument, you have my best and warmest regards for the New Year in any case!!!! Jim PS - I also know the circus when I see it!!

But to answer the first part of my question - "Why is there such a wave of fakes in Germany?" I am still puzzled and can only conclude that someone has set up his own little cottage industry there!! Jim

Actually I did not bother with the document as it was so evidently not the right document. But yes...considering we restrict ourselves to official soviet government issued ODM's....fake fake fake fake!!! Jim

With only the most minimal differences between the common 3rd class and less common 1st and 2nd class, I think its a whole lot more complicated than that. If PMD thinks its wise to stay away from these and this is in a way his bread and butter, I'd be most wary of the 2nd and 1st classes. But at least yes....its the easiest thing to spot the "cheap" fakes of either classes..... and yet people buy them! Jim

Hey Andreas, I cannot say I have heard that one before. Anyone care to expand on this? As a rule of thumb I personally believe that if the base of the OGPW1 is not gold then the base itself is not original. Jim

Christophe...... Soviet..... Which museum is that if I may ask Jim

There was another pretty thread on this but I cannot seem to get my head to work well this morning! Moderator Note: Comments and photo removed. Political statements are not allowed on this forum

Its been mentioned.... but here's more detail on the Malta GC. Also in the "Then and Now" section on http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=11793 you can see some pics I had put together as part of the Siege of Malta. Regards Jim "Although primarily intended to mark individual acts of gallantry, the George Cross has, on the express recommendation of the Sovereign, been awarded twice on a "collective" basis. The first by King George VI in 1942 to the Island of Malta and the second by Queen Elizabeth II in 1999 to the Royal Ulster Constabulary. MALTA 1942 During the Second World War, Malta's strategic position enabled her to strike at the Axis forces in the Mediterranean, disrupting their operations in North Africa and elsewhere. The ship-repairing facilities were invaluable to the British Fleet. Malta had to be defended but the early months saw much damage as the islands' inadequate air defences comprised of three aged Gloster Gladiator biplanes which the locals immediately christened Faith, Hope and Charity. Defences were eventually upgraded with the arrival of Hurricane and Spitfire fighters. Less than 24 hours after Italy entered the war in June 1940 the first air-raids by the Italian Air Force occurred, which then increased with the involvement of the Luftwaffe. Through 1941 and 1942, 3,000 raids occurred, towns and the industrial areas around harbours were heavily damaged and much of the population was evacuated to the island's centre. Thousands of inhabitants and British defenders were killed or injured. Malta was the most heavily bombed place on earth - proportionately (in area) more bombs fell on Malta than on the English industrial town of Coventry. As the convoys carrying precious supplies were attacked and sunk, the islanders suffered serious deprivation and disease. As it transpired, although April 1942 was the final month of the Luftwaffe offensive, it was possibly the most difficult period of the siege so devastatingly enforced by the Axis powers. The island and its population were not to experience any relief until the final months of 1942 when supplies and aid began to reach the defenders in significant quantities. By August 1942 the situation was desperate. The arrival of the battered remains of a convoy on the 15th August was ascribed by the inhabitants to a miracle, interceded by the Virgin, on whose Feast of the Assumption it occurred. All over the world people had followed the resistance of the islanders and those trying to bring aid by sea and air. In April 1942 King George VI, in a dramatic and unprecedented gesture, conferred the George Cross on the tiny Mediterranean island. The award was made in a letter dated 15th April 1942 from His Majesty to the Governor of Malta, Lieutenant General Sir William Dobbie GCMG KCB DSO, which read as follows: "To honour her brave people I award the George Cross to the Island Fortress of Malta to bear witness to a heroism and devotion that will long be famous in history." The population received the honour to recognise their courage under sustained enemy attacks during World War II. Malta - Britain's "unsinkable aircraft carrier" - was of vital importance to the Allied war effort. Its people endured air raids and a naval blockade which almost saw them starved into submission. The news of the award of the George Cross was internationally welcomed as it served in a tangible way to mark the heroism of all concerned. A depiction of the George Cross was added to the Maltese national flag soon after the award was made and the honour is still proudly borne today by the Maltese as their flag is raised outside the European Parliament Buildings in Brussels. The George Cross was presented by Field Marshal Lord Gort VC GCB CBE DSO** MVO MC, the recently appointed Governor, to Sir George Borg MBE, Chief Justice, who accepted it on behalf of the people of Malta on the 13th of September in the ruins of the Palace Square, Valetta. The George Cross was subsequently taken to every part of the islands so the Maltese could see their award. On his visit to Malta in December 1943, President Roosevelt read the following citation, "In the name of the people of the United States of America I salute the Island of Malta, its people and defenders, who, in the cause of freedom and justice and decency throughout the world, have rendered valorous service far above and beyond the call of duty. Under repeated fire from the skies, Malta stood alone but unafraid in the center of the sea, one tiny bright flame in the darkness - a beacon of hope for the clearer days which have come. Malta's bright story of human fortitude and courage will be read by posterity with wonder and with gratitude through all the ages. What was done in this Island maintains the highest traditions of gallant men and women who from the beginning of time have lived and died to preserve civilization for all mankind." December 7th 1943 Franklin D. Roosevelt The George Cross and original letter from King George VI are on display in the National War Museum, Valetta. On the occasion of the 60th anniversary of the award in April 2002, 15 members of the Victoria Cross and George Cross Association were invited by the Government to visit Malta for a week of celebrations." Source: http://www.gc-database.co.uk/collective.htm

It reads: "V.K.CERTIFICATE company specializes in authentication of orders, medals and badges from Germany (1914-1945) and Russia (1894-1945). We have prepared material to publish two books on the subject and soon these books will be available on the market. Our team has a broad knowledge in history and many years of experience in collectables, authentication and research. Every one of us has education in historic sciences and archive research. One of us has a PhD in History and has done a lot of scientific publications." That does not answer my query. Who???? And so what anyways - having education in historic sciences and archive research, even having a PhD in History does not make necessarily you an expert in medals. My own father is such a person holding graduate and post graduate degrees in history. Having also taught history for a great many numbers of years and having carried out continued research even after his retirement does not automatically qualify him as an expert on authenticating medals!!!! My opinion!! Be wary of any COAs if you do not know exactly who is issuing them! As for the original theme.... I've said it, others have said it.... "Dig up those pics". Anyone awarded a #7 or higher surely was not a nobody and somewhere, publications, pics or other period documentary evidence must exist! Till then its highly suspicious whether or not any high numbered Red Banner, even if in a collection, even if scrutinised by experts is original or not. With mints and russian bureacractic system, I am sure that somewhere, someone holds the answer. Finding this person and apparantly finding the evidence has been and will remain elusive....... But with no definite proof that these awards did not exist, there is nothing that can stop speculation. Jim

Love it or hate it, the Red Bible is not as comprehensive nowadays as it was when it was issued. Don't get me wrong.... it defo is in my "love it" list...more like "adore it" list !! But I think that a lot has turned up since then and its just no longer as comprehensive as it was. Jim

Dunno if its just the flash but that does not look like gold to me!! As they say all that glitters is not gold...... and this sure does not even glitter!!

Here is an OGPW I do not like. I believe the red star to be original but the hammer and sickle and gold star are probably cast and not gold! If so, this is a get rich quick scheme seen before where one takes a lovel OGPW 1st apart and replaces the gold with some other gold looking medal. Selling the medal at a few hundred dollars and being left with the gold is what some would call a nice profit. Barbarians!!!

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but who exactly issued that COA?? Jim

Wow - Thanks Lufthmench!!! That made my day!!! See.....I am so easy to please Jim PS - Wonder if the Holy Office of the Inquisition also have a website nowadays....... ! I know this is but hey....gotta keep occupied till Chris reveals his Holy Grail to us

Well dutchboy, start to pray that Bush's faithful puppy Blair does not come to heel and follow suit with some similar legislation on British medals. Now that would be really earth shattering for many, many more collectors !!!! Jim

Still waiting Curious picture of Hitler and the Pope..... .... made me wonder what the current Pope Razzinger would have looked like in German Flak uniform prior to his desertion and capture by allied forces during the war. Now that indeed would be a holy grail indeed! Jim