JimZ

Well I hit the books on this one in the meantime and yes, whereas there were docs signed by Gorbachev in 1989 these carried the presidium stamp and not the president's stamp like this one. Case in point red Bible pg 395 and pg 396 with Gorby on behalf of presidium (395) and Gorby as president (396). Seems that in the case of the booklet we have at hand in this thread Gorby was already promoted before the or the rest of the world knew it.

I stumbled on this topic today. My test for this order is usually simple..... "Red Bible" primarily plus some other pics of reverse of originals. The reverse tells the story! Look at the definition of the profile of the fake versus the original. The edge of the originals are much more defined whereas the documented fake is much smoother around the wreath "curves". (even the small pic Andreas attached already hints at much different profiles!!) - I'd almost go so far to suggest that this particular piece is probably from the same mould as the documented fake... I have seen about a dozen of these "smoother curved" orders on sale and only once have I come across what I believed to be an original. Needless to say, I failed to pull trigger on it! But as mentioned .....its hard to tell the two apart - and quite honestly, if there is an other better fake mould then I am really a sitting duck! As for the booklet..... verrrrry interesting point raised by Christian about the stamp . I believe Gorby's signature was already on docs dated 1989 docs issued on behalf of the presidium but the stamp would indeed be a presidium stamp as opposed to the president stamps (pls correct me if I am wrong as docs are surely not my forte !!!!). I would have rejected this medal based on its reverse alone yet the document sure adds one heck of a stink to the already smell of burning! Regards, Jim

Hey guys, Let me tell you why I personally would prefer an Order of Glory any time to any other award - well if I could another two of it (a 2nd and 1st class) then I would have cavalier status and priveleges to come with it too. Helps feed me and the family more than 3 red stars or OGPW! (Of course I am not thinking as a patriotic soldier fighting to save my motherland here!! ) However, if my actions merited an award that was higher than Glory, say an ORB, than that is what I would get irrespective of what I wanted because the State's hierarchy of orders would dictate otherwise! Of course, If I got a HSU and Order of Lenin (plus status and priveleges) I would not half be disappointed! I wonder how many may have got to their 2nd class Glory and received an ORB instead of a 1st Class glory! As far as research goes, this is valid as long as it goes off documented sources. A hierechy based on perception of individual's value of medals is totally subjective and highly individual and cannot be supported by black and white. Research can establish several things. For example (and these exampels are definitley not exclusive) - Why was a person who was recommneded for HSU awarded say a red banner instead? Research can look at a number downgraded recommendations and establish the award criteria versus the documented action. What research can also establish is award patterns, serial numbering/variation changing. It can document order/medal/booklet/variation in minute detail. And the real wealth and potential of historical research is to bring to light award histories locked in archives for us to appreciate the stories behind these orders and make them more than just beautiful collectable items!! Good research will lead to the right conclusions, just as long as the it goes off a proper black and white base. Christian, I think that your have drawn the wrong conclusions about Dolf's comments (and possibly mine as we seem to we seem to share a common side of this argument). I for one value research. But I for one would not question an official hierarchy of orders and try to create a new one. And I will give you two reasons for this.... firstly we have an official order in black and white so there is really no point arguing about it! Secondly, this black and white hierarchy has served as the framework behind the awarding of all soviet orders (even in the days when some pure combat decorations became long service awards!) And on this note I think I rest my case. Regards, Jim

Gents, Whereas one may argue till dawn and beyond about who the experts are, I think we can safely say (and I hope that most would agree ) that there is an official hierarchy for Orders of the Soviet Union. Discussion is always a healthy thing but why try to re-invent the wheel? Regards, Jim

What do you make of this Order of Glory 2nd Class? Converted 3rd class with low serial number or original 2nd class? I suspect the former........ Regards Jim [attachmentid=53661]

Well each to his own and of course no disrespects intended to anyone. Some medals are just tough to make a call on and pictures as you know do not always do justice. Nothing will ever beat holding and studying the medal. And with all due respect, nobody is infallible especially when the value of medals is now rocketing up giving fakers more incentive to perfect their work. If its 'easy' to tell a fake now it will only get harder. mark my words! Jim

Hauptmann As I see it - I do not like Leningrad as it is very worn out but I'd probably say its genuine (though i would not buy it). Sevastopol and Odessa - Fakes/Repros. Polar regions, Keningsberg and Vienna - Fakes/repros. I do not like your Kiev or Caucuses either. I'd say Fakes/Repros if I had to make a call. FAKERS!!!! - Although I must say, they do make the hobby so much more challenging! Jim

I would not be sure of either of them. Sevastopol, albeit small pic lacking details does not look completely right. Closer pics would help. Belrade is one of those medals its tricky to make a call on....

Gents...what do u make of this 1870 - genuine or fake? - Jim [attachmentid=52445] [attachmentid=52446]

Lovely!

If its one person that is bidding for it then yes. I'd pay it - agreed! But look at the bid history. its almost insane! I was never good at statistics but what would the odds be of finding a missing red star or any missing numbered medal really?

Circa 1944 but other than that, as Modvor some people are out of their mind. Of course if I was selling I'd love such eager buyers! And now, I'll go ! I cannot believe the price paid for this ORS!!

Thanks Alfred. A very detailed list. Are these all observed by yourself based on award books? Also what are the table colomns. I take it that the first is the order number, the second the award date....and the third colomn? Is that the document issue date perhaps? Thanks for your help and support. Data severely lacking on this order. Regards Jim

Gentlemen, Re groups and splitting or not. I agree that a group should be kept intact because of its history. Much as it hurts to see a group split up however, once a group is sold the responsibility passes from dealer to buyer and much as I disagree with it, the buyer is after all free to do as he pleases, even if this breaks a fundamental unwritten code of ethics when dealing with medals. My word to dealers would be that if you are really collectors at heart and if you really feel heartbroken about your group being broken up, then do not sell the group in the first place or at least try to watch out who this is sold to!! Its impractical....I should know! My experience - I did once have a lovely group of British medals which was very dear to me and I did want to sell this to finance my present collection. However I asked buyers to take time to contact me as I would only sell the group if this was to be retained as such. It did complicate my life with all the correspondence I received. And of course, there was no real guarantee that the end buyer would not eventually split it up! But thanks to my screening this group finally went to a person whom I now also know personally. Even better, I can go see this group whenever I am in the same country! But that is why I chose to be a collector and not a dealer! On another note, I have personally witnessed the "creation" of groups. One case was on ebay when an ORB was first advertised as a standalone piece and as it remained unsold (due to a ridiculous reserve) it later found itself on a group bar the week after. I gave the guy flak and blacklisted his auctions (and i hope others did same!) Either way, my view is that a group has its own energy and just like energy which cannot be created or destroyed, A MEDAL GROUP SHOULD NOT BE CREATED OR DESTROYED!! And collectors, when you witness dealers splitting up or creating groups please avoid them rather than support them!! Jim

Thanks. Very interesting actually to see that 32717 is dated 1983 and 43995 which is sequentially after the previous one is dated 1977. Its still too early to say if this order is gonna be one of those tricky ones. More feedback appreciated gents lets try to nail this. Jim

Cannot make out the serial number on the partially closed booklet. If u would oblige......

Gentlemen, I'm gonna be courageous and try for the data on a third order as well as the ORB labour and Order of the badge of honour. But that's it for now. I'll move onto others once I close of this research!! I'd now also like try to compile some data re award dates and serial numbers of the "Order of Friendship of Peoples". Could anyone having award booklets or reseach for this order kindly send in the data and possibly scans of the award booklet showing serial number and award date so that I can attempt to compile data. Thanks for your very kind assistance and I hope that your feedback is good enough to be able to present something of interest at a later date. Thanks to all for your support. Jim (Also please see similar threads for the "Order of the Badge of Honour" and "Order of the Red Banner of Labour" - Thanks)

I just looked at the docs and based on the content tried to explain what they are. Cannot be the one to say whether it comes with a medal or badge as I have not seen anything of the sort before. But the name did catch my attention and I thought I'd look it up. Beyond that.....I hope someone else throws more light on them for ya!

Best as I can say the lower document is a pass for transport department of NKGB USSR of Lvov Railroads issued to Seargeant Duchenko Roman (patronym illegible) The upper document is a certificate of award for active participation of work awarded by Volonteers Society of Assistance to Soviet Army (DOSAAF). Signature appears to be of Marshal of Soviet Union C.M. Budyonny. If its a signature not a stamp it could be an interesting document. If you wanna see more about the guy just check this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semyon_Budyonny Regards Jim

on both threads Order of Victory. Keep them coming gents.

Gentlemen, I'd like try to compile some data re award dates and serial numbers of the "Order of the Badge of Honour". Could anyone having award booklets or reseach for the Order of the Badge of Honour kindly send in the data and possibly scans of the award booklet showing serial number and award date so that I can attempt to compile data. Any interesting or early variations are always worth showing as well. Thanks for your very kind assistance and I hope that your feedback is good enough to be able to present something of interest at a later date. Thanks. Jim (Also please see similar thread for the Order of the Red Banner of Labour - Thanks)

Gentlemen, I'd like try to compile some data re award dates and serial numbers of the "Order of the Red banner of Labour". Could anyone having award booklets or reseach for the ORB of labour kindly send in the data and possibly scans of the award booklet showing serial number and award date so that I can attempt to compile data. Any interesting or early variations are always worth showing as well. Thanks for your very kind assistance and I hope that your feedback is good enough to be able to present something of interest at a later date. Thanks. Jim (Also please see similar thread for the Order of the Badge of Honour - Thanks)

[attachmentid=48546]

Gentlemen, I'm sure most of us might have been watching the 2nd class Order of Suvorov up on one of the auction sites. Sold for the modest sum of USD3,000 I still have not drawn my conclusions as to whether or not this was a stunning original or an excellent fake. Search as i could I did not find this particular award up for discussion on the site. I therefore thought I'd ask you gentlemen to post mortem of this item. Jim

Not really my field - Very crisp polished silver for an 1870 and the rust could be a lovely touching touch. No other apparant markings. Tis? Tis Not? Tis? Tis Not?........My guess Tis Not? Gentlemen......