v.Perlet

Hello Graf, i do hope that you got and paid for an 'original" Personally, unless it is an EK1 made in silver e.g. by KO, i simply don't trust these EK1's, especially those that just don't show a 100 years of aging. It is also known that the manufacturers of EK1's 1914 did with governmental consent produce EK1. right into 1945, for replacement purposes of originally awarded pieces. How many they kept producing after 1945 I wouldn't know, but certainly on a small scale it was done. An uncle of mine was a known German collector of Imperial German Militaria, the advice he gave me in the late 70, that I remember the most was: don't invest your money into Iron crosses. I don't recall the name of the maker, but there was an article once mentioning that one sold his machines in the 60's and that these machines were subsequently brought back into action in the 90's due to the reunification process of Germany and someone got the chance to lay his hands on them. Regards v.Perlet

Hallo Komtur, Die Aussagen zu 1866, 1891 und 1900 decken sich mit meinem Handbuch von 1907 (12 verbesserte Auflage) 1905 das Offizierskreuz bekommt Flammen - so nicht im Handbuch zu ersehen. muss demzufolge erst ab 1908 umgesetzt worden sein. 1905 das Ritterkreuz 1. Klasse wird in 3.Klasse umbenannt - so im Handbuch nicht zu ersehen muss demzufolge erst ab 1908 umgesetzt worden sein. 1905 das Ritterkreuz 2. Klasse wird durch die 4. Klasse ersetzt - so im Handbuch nicht zu ersehen Im Gegenteil das Ritterkreuz 2. Klasse ist nachwievor in Gold muss demzufolge erst ab 1908 umgesetzt worden sein. 1905 das emaillierte MVK wird durch ein silbernes Kreuz in 2 Klassen....... - so im Handbuch nicht zu ersehen, muss demzufolge erst ab 1908 umgesetzt worden sein. 1917 - Seit Jahresbeginn .....die 3. und 4. Klasse mit Medaillions aus vergoldetem Silber. Mein MVO hat ein vergoldetes Medaillion, viele andere MVO's nicht, bzw. Medaillions nur in Silber. Dass also dann ein MVO mit vergoldetem Medaillion ein MVO 4.Klasse ist, und ein MVO mit silbernem Medaillion eine Klasse 3 sein soll, leuchtet mir nicht ein. Kannst Du noch etwas herrausfinden bzgl. meiner Frage, ob der jeweilige MVO Hersteller auch seine eigenen Medaillions gefertigt hat oder zu gekauft hat? Gruss v.Perlet

Ah yes, very discrete and conforming for the time, indeed? Thanks drspeck Regards v.Perlet

Hello GM1, those are real beauties, thanks for sharing Regards v.Perlet

Amazing, one never stops to learn. If I would have come across such a medal, the last thing that would have come to my mind is FRENCH More like North Korea Regards v.Perlet

Sorry gents, I just couldn't help grinning at the thought of a German Officer (in Nazi service) parading that kind of an Order. The appropriate translation I think would be simply; Kommandeurskreuz Maybe this one would be less auspicious for a German officer to wear at the time The Cruz de Comendador de Número de la Orden de la Mehdauia Regards v.Perlet

Hello gents, I am sure some of you are familiar with this photo. However I have not found information as to identifying him. He is obviously a member of the German East-Asian-Korps The shoulder boards seem to be that of a Leutnant For my part I can’t visualize a unit number or marking His trousers (I don’t know the English word/term) Seem to be that used by cavalry men due to the bootsole strap. So no Regimental No. on the shoulder boards and Cavalry trousers seem to make him a member of the East-Asia–Cavalry detachment. I am not familiar with Prussian collar tabs-but they look like the ones used by Dragoner (which again would point towards a cavalry officer) The two things that irk me are: He looks far too old to be “just” a Leutnant All the recipients of the Chinese Dragon Order that I am aware off, held at minimum the rank of a Hauptmann (Captain). Judging from his interim mantel it is a photo taken 1902 or later, so he could well be a member of the German China Occupation troops. Any information or knowledge to this Leutnant would be appreciated. Regards v.Perlet

Servus Walter, Nach dem Beschreibungstext und Abbildungen mit Text zufolge, in dem original Soldatenhandbuch von 1907 (Edition 1905) gibt es nur 4 Bayerische Militaer Orden, der Rest sind, Hof und Staatsorden (z.B. diese Bruststerne), Gedenkmuenzen. z.b. China, Rettungsmedaille, Dienstauszeichnungen, etc. 1. Kommandeur-Kreuz und Ritter-Kreuz des Militaer-Max-Joseph-Ordens 2. Offizier-Kreuz des Militaer-Verdienst-Ordens ohne Band 3. Ritter-Kreuz II Klasse (vermutlich II Klasse, da ja der Orden 1. schon die Beeichnung Ritter-Kreuz beinhaltet) Kann mir auch nicht vorstellen wie eine I Klasse desselben Ordens ausehen soll, da das oben erwaehnte Ritter-Kreuz II Klasse ja schon in Gold ist. 4. Militaer-Verdienst-Orden in Silber (gleiche Abbildung wie das Ritter-Kreuz II Klasse in Gold. (Also dem Zufolge mit Flammen) Es gibt in diesem Buch keinen Hinweis,Text oder Abildungen eines MVO III. od. IV. Klasse, also vermute ich mal dass diese erst spaeter eingefuehrt wurden. Nach dem Ordenserlass vom November 1905 wird der Militaer-Verdienst-Orden in Silber nicht mehr verliehen. (Was klar ist, da ab 1906 das neue aus zwei Klassen bestehende MVK verliehen wird - eben das ohne Flammen und mit nicht emailierten Kreuzarmen). Die Orden, Ritter-Kreuz II Klasse und das Militaer-Verdienst-Kreuz die im Krieg erworben werden tragen zusaetzlich Schwerter. Kann natuerlich auch sein, dass man den Soldaten die dieses Buch gelesen haben nur Auszuege, oder die halbe Wahrheit bzgl. Orden aufgetischt hat.??! Aois klor etzet? Gruss Andreas

Hello Komtur, you wrote: (1) the before golden parts of Bavarian orders were made after 1916 of gilded silver (2) the widened frame of the lower arm backside was used as a simple identifying sign for gilded orders (3) the medaillon of the 4th classes of the Bavarian Militärverdienstorden were made of gold until 1916. Therefore a 4th class of this order had to be produced after 1916 with silver gilded medaillon and with a widened frame of the lower arm backside. This statement of yours and also forwarded by others is what I am having trouble with, since many MVO incl. mine do not match that description (and so far I have no reason to believe that mine or those others I have seen or held in my hands would be fakes) – far too well manufactured (even the weight is perfect) and detailed, as to serve the purpose of being a cheap to produce fake. Okay so if you agree let's just forget about this frame issue for the time being. As such one question; did the MVO manufactures e.g. Hemmerle or W&C, etc. produce manufacture their own Medallions or were these purchased from other sources? Regards v.Perlet

Servus Walter, thanks for all the pics. - always appreciated. i am quite familiar with the MVK issue after 1905. Because the official 1907 handbook did not show or mention an MVO silver "without flames", I was just wondering.,since after a soldier would have studied this recognition guide and someone else would show up wearing that MVO silver without flames - he wouldn't know what it is. Okay, maybe I am just putting to many thoughts into this. Taking the actual feasible rarity of an original pre 1906 MVO in silver into account - 99% of those presently offered must be fakes, and price-wise they are even offered at half price of an MVO 4.KL. Have you ever seen that NCO cross on a time-period photo? I have only seen it once on a pencil drawn portrait (not very clear so you cant make out the real features). Gruess mir die Berge Andreas

Servus Walter, scho, ober dann versteihn de ondern niet wos mir schmaddern dan. Regarding MVO's. I have an original Soldiers handbook regrading the royal Bavarian army printed 1907 edition 1905. There is also a section dedicated for soldiers to learn about recognizing medals. In this 1905 edition only 1 order (MVO) is shown. described as Ritterkreuz II Klasse des Militaer Verdienst Ordens in Gold (for officers) and Militaer-Verdienst-Kreuz in Silber mit Schwertern (for non officers). Since the Bavarian order edict of November 1905 states that the previous MVK in Silber is to be replaced by the "new" MVK (1906-1913-1918) this book logically does not show this "new MVK" - basically the one that is nowadays floating around the market, divided into 3 classes. Since it is an official recognition guide for soldiers regarding the period 1905 and before, it would indicate that the (1905 MVK) looked exactly the same as an MVO only being in silver. Would that be correct? Because if so, then what are these after 1905 (MVK's with blue enamel but no flames) shown in the internet supposed to really be? just fakes? or did the official recognition page just miss out on these medals? Regards Andreas

Servus Waldo, thanks for the link. Mid deim Englisch, des basst scho. BTW, whilst checking on all the MVO stuff via internet, I couldn't help noticing that the average asking price for a MVO 4.KL incl box is in the meantime 500 - 700 Euro - are these realistic prices? Regards v.Perlet

I thought so - thanks for sharing the photo Regards v.Perlet Hello Graham, thanks for the help and explanation. Regards v.Perlet

Servus Waldo, Hello Komtur, thanks a lot for the input. Komtur; I haven't seen that kind of arrangement on a medal-bar yet, as to where the MVO is placed last. What is the green order, some Freikorps medal? - anyway, a good looking collector item. Waldo, to me this isn't about stating or believing that my MVO is a 3Kl. It is about making use of proven facts and information in order to generally identify an MVO3. So far I have reasons to believe that the information existing in order to verify a MVO 3.KL and an MVO 4.Kl are not correct, but we will see. Waldo and Komtur: many here write plated, some gilded, I assume it means the same? Last question; as I wrote before, according to German jeweler standards, only solid silver material can be stamped e.g. 900 or 950 not some alloy that is coated with gold or silver. So if this standard naturally applies to MVO's, then that would mean all MVO parts (frame, flames, swords and crowns) stamped 900/950 are solid silver right? Regards v. Perlet

Hello Waldo If this widened frame is not available, a 3rd class is a subsequently gold-plated 4th class. Fully agree with you Thus one can state that none of the s/v copies of the manufacturer Weiss & Co. can show a broadened edge of the lower arm of the cross on the back, as they were not made in this way I disagree, since my MVO does show exactly this widened frame Very few auction houses know that original silver/gold plated MVOs have extra inserted flames. I also tend to disagree, since they certainly know as much as we do. Also the woessler MVO you show is the one i already posted, noting that it does not have separate flames. (at least no visible gaps) to confirm. Regards v.Perlet

What I can't make of sense right now is the meaning behind "81st surrender ceremony" The medal was issued likely in view of: The formal Japanese surrender in the China Theater took place in a simple 20 minute ceremony in the auditorium of the Central Military Academy in Nanking at 09:00 on 9 September 1945. General Ho Ying-chen, Commander-in-Chief of the Chinese Army, and Lieut. Gen. Okamura Yasutsugu, Commander of the Japanese Forces in Central China, represented their respective governments. Immediately following the signing of the Act of Surrender, General Ho handed Order No. 1 of Generalissimo Chiang to Lieut. Gen. Okamura as a supplement to the Act of Surrender. Independent of the surrender ceremony on 2nd of September, involving The Soviet Union, UK, USA and the RoC. lets see if a good photo of the reverse shines light onto "81st surrender ceremony" Regards v.Perlet

Hello Komtur, okay one thing is obvious; separate flames Which in turn would give meaning to some posters having forwarded that the flames of an MOV 3.Kl. are hollow. If the flames and body are cast in one piece, it would be impossible to retract the pusher from a mold used for casting a solid body with hollow flames. To my understanding a mark e.g. 950 cant be used for a coating or gilding - it refers to a solid body made of silver. e.g. the frame, swords, crowns and flames. Which in some cases then were gold gilded/coated in order to make it a MOV 3.KL. 2nd grade . If a jeweler offers a necklace that is marked 950, then it is a chain that consists to 950 parts of silver and 50 parts of e.g. copper/brass. It would be fraud to have a chain made of e.g. 667 parts of copper/brass, with a silver coating or remaining 333 parts of silver and to mark it 950. So far I was under the impression that MVO's 3.KL 1st grade are actually e.g. 750 gold, and MVO's 3Kl. 2nd grade are 900 respectively 950 silver, with an added gold coating. The latter like the one Generalarzt Dr. Paul Brecht was awarded. However in view of the flames, then 99% or 99.9% of all offered MVO's 3KL would be fakes (or MVO's 4.KL. offered knowingly under false pretext) - since they all have no separate flames. WOW!! Unless there are only certain makers, such as e.g. GH who has or made these hollow flames. Whilst other makers continued to manufacture full body MVO's. In turn an e.g. GH manufactured MVO would be rather a sign of reducing the silver-content compared to a massive silver cast. As such maybe a late war "cheaper" version for an MVO 3KL 2nd grade and also for all MVO 4KL. Regards v.Perlet

Hello Komtur thanks for the input. However it makes the matter to me even more confusing. 1. the assessment by sashaw - No W&C made 3. Kl (but no proof for this assertion) 2. Both pictures posted, one by you and another poster showing a "woeschler" 3.Kl. These pictures do show the separate flames clearly, but both crosses are not in gold (especially not the swords and frames) and one is stamped visibly 950. which is a silver marking not a gold marking. They show no attributes of a MVO's 3.Klasse of the 1st grade (gold) and due to the missing (e.g. Generalarzt Dr. Brechtgold) gold plating on the swords, the frame, the crown and even on on the flames - both wouldn't even be MVO's 3.KL of the 2nd grade. Due to being only in silver, they would both be MVO's 4.Kl. (only being somehow different due to the separate flames). So which content of information or "knowledge" cruising around the internet and diverse forums is actually correct? Meaning I have yet to come across viable sources that would state; An MVO 4Kl. with separate flames is actually an MVO. 3KL. Regards v.Perlet

Hello Deutschritter, hm... the flashbulb, could be very well be the reason, since the iron core of the "fat"cross (EK2) seems to be the same size as that of the EK1. Thanks for the link - that's great info there. will take me some time to read through this, but it will happen. Regards v.Perlet

Hello spolei, Thanks for the photos. congratulations a very good looking collectable. "The fact that the 3rd Class Krone Swords shown was sold at auction does not make it any more original" I totally agree with you on that individual occurrence. However this seller and especially other auction companies selling/offering presently exactly the same thing, have a good reputation, and as discussed earlier there are unpleasant consequences for an auction company - that knowingly sells/advertises wrong/fake products or information. I can't proof it but it seems obvious to me that known auction companies posses the same if not even more knowledge about these items then the normal average buyer/collector. So if it would be a fact or proven that an "original" MOV 3.Kl. has separate flames - then actually ALL auction companies would be knowingly lying. And I think that would be a very tough verdict to give off. Viewing upon your photo I can't really confirm a "separate flame" what it does show is that the attachment of the flame to the frame isn't as solid as seen on others or e.g. on mine. Maybe yours is a "bad quality"? (hey no offense meant okay - honestly) Probably my verdict or judgment might be very different upon holding it in my hands. One thing I noticed in regards to MVO's 3.Kl. is that the frame of the cross-arms - is always in gold, even on those that are basically silver, but gold plated/coated. Whilst mine is clearly not, only the sword and the flames. Maybe this could be one of the clues towards identification? or are there proven original MVO's 3.KL. that show silver framed crossarms? Regards v.Perlet

Hello 1812Overture, no problem I don't feel offended at all - i find this an interesting topic. I am living in Suzhou at present - and all cities in China have these Flee/antique markets as you know. One needs to differentiate clearly between war medals/war decorations and this commemorative "junk" I do know 3 Korean war veterans and I have seen their medals. total beauties, massive and great workmanship From my experience these veterans do not/are not willing to part from their medals and before these veterans pass away someone within the family will take hold of them. Also as you might know, these veterans are being taken care of very well by the state. Those veterans that I know (rank two privates and one NCO) (1. a cook) (2. a radio operator) (3. infantry grunt) receive an average monthly pension of 12000 - 14000Rmb (which is 2 to 3 times as much as a factory worker gets and as such their family members are also under no financial pressure. Each of them despite their "low rank and combat activity" holds at average 8 of these beauties, plus 4-6 of these junk commemorative medals. Taking into account that ca. 2,0 million men&women were participating in the PVA - this alone would account for 8-12 million of these junk medals since even if a person diseased/KIA, the families of those deceased then received them. Those serving during the Korean war in the PLA and political organizations numbered around 15 million men and women - and they too were awarded or bought by themselves patriotic "junk" adding up to around 60-70 million. This figure of ca. 80 million junk medals in total is only in regards to the Korean war. During the final liberation (1947-1949) around 18 million man and women of the PLA and its associated political institutions were decorated with these junk commemorative medals - adding up to around 100 million medals. (not even counting replacements) From 1949 -1969 including the culture revolution an estimated 100 million people wore voluntarily, or in order to keep a low profile these "junk" medals - adding up to around 500 million medals (not even counting replacements within these 20 years) (Not even mentioning these Mao badges of which each single school kid and adult Chinese had at-least 2 pieces) These three periods, Liberation, Korea war and the period 1949-1969 there were in total around 700 million commemorative junk medals distributed. (again not counting replacements in those 22 years) If the state awards, prepares ca. 700 million medals one can be sure that the state must have probably commissioned around at least a billion (if not 2 billion within 22 years) of these medals. So if some one tells me that these commemorative medals (selling at average for 1Rmb (15c) are all fake or produced after 2000 - well I just start to....... Which does not mean that some rare or better looking ones, selling for 30Rmb/pc ($5pc) and above might be a so called 2000 production. However I would and have never paid more then 1 Rmb/pc for this genuine junk. And to close my opinion, if someone I don't know personally would offer me a "genuine" war medal, e.g. Korea, I won't go for it since these real medals even in China are bloody expensive and therefore highly prone to being faked. Regards v.Perlet

This MVO 3 Klasse was auctioned of and the maker is W&C So again I have not seen or received any valid proof, that W&C would not have manufactured MVO's 3 Klasse. Just stating so doesn't make it a proven fact. The same applies towards the statement that original MVO's 3. Klasse have separately attached flames. The below sample doesn't show this either. Nor (doesn't mean I am correct) have I ever seen or held an MVO 3.Klasse in my hands that had these "separate" flames. The more photos that could be supplied towards this issue (separate flames)- the better to judge upon this thread of being actually professional and not just assumptive. This thread should be about as to how to identify an MVO 3. Klasse and not as to what is my collectable - which is to 80% an MVO 4 Klasse - with a forwarded probability by me of maybe being a Klasse 3. Regards v.Perlet

Yes, I believe the reason for a rather low price achieved was due to the arising question of being a piece originally awarded or a contemporary second production piece. Since I would consider 12.000euro for an award that was only handed out 5 times in WW1 - to be an extreme rarity and thus my estimate would go easily towards 20.000+. Regards v.Perlet

Hello BlackcowboyBS, according to the document you posted, this Reitzenstein died in 1900, in Charlottenburg (Berlin) with his final rank being a Generalmajor - as such he is Egmont Heinrich Wilhelm Friedrich Abraham von Reitzenstein The other Reitzenstein wearing a Wuerttemberg uniform is Karl Bernhard Freiherr von Reitzenstein with his final rank being a Generalleutnant, died in 1885 in Stuttgart. He is the one wearing these iron crosses on the Photo and as to whom my question regarding "what kind is the iron cross with the fat frame" refers to. Regards v.Perlet

Hello sashaw, my God what a terrible/confusing thread. 80% is about MVK's and not MVO's and many times MVO's are referred to as MVK's. But W&C did probably manufacture MVO's 3 Klasse, since there are even MVO's 2 Klasse by W&C on this thread. The issue in regards to an original MVO 3. Klasse seems to be solely the issue of the flames. MVO's 4 Klasse, the flames and cross-body are cast in one piece, whilst on an MVO 3. Klasse they are cast/attached seperatly. (Gap between flames and cross-body frame) If this should be correct, my MVO would indeed be a MVO 4.Klasse - which is fine by me? Regards v.Perlet