Harrier

Beautiful RK clasp! Love that leaf pattern!

I'm sorry if I may not have been clear. An officer candidate would certainly be entitled to the silver cap cord. I do not believe that the candidate would be entitled to the silver PIPING on the capband.

I think Jacques raises an interesting point, but an officer candidate would not (I don't believe) be entitled to the silver piping. I'm pretty convinced it is a real officer cap.

Based only on what I have seen over the years in the collections of reputable collectors, I truly believe that there are so many variations in construction of clothing items that we will never see them all. It can be a dangerous thing to stray from the path of "textbook", and I would not recommend it as regular practice, but I do believe that many good items are passed by when a collector is unwilling to do so. P.S. In my collection, my officer and my general white tops both have waffle pattern tops, and my enlisted has plain cotton, yet I stand by what I said here.

I do not see anything wrong with the basic cap at all. As for the eagle (the photos from the other link are not showing up on my computer), I could not tell without actually holding it in person. In the photos here, nothing says "automatically bad". Regarding the top, I am not aware of any regulation saying that it HAD to be waffle pattern (and even if there was, that wouldn't be the end of the story). If it is a thick weave cotton (which in the photos it seems to be), then what is wrong with it?

Does anyone know if Deumer and B&NL ever made badges for each other, especially later war? I ask because I saw today (unfortunately no photos yet) an unqualified air gunner with typical B&NL features (recessed catch and "smashed rivets") but with a Deumer mark. Was in zinc and looked good to me, but I haven't seen something like this before. Thanks, Harrier

I believe that it is only fair that you also know that there is a dispute in some circles over whether or not the style of "Sonderklasse" mark used on your cap is correct. Some say the letter font should be different and that the repro maker Janke used the style shown on your cap. Also, I have seen disputes about whether the celluloid diamond should be attached with one row of stitching or a double row.So we have 3 areas of "collector concern": 1.) Color of logo 2.) Style of letter font 3.) Stitching on shield. Certainly, "Cobra" has been used on copies. For me, after more than 40 years of collecting (primarily Luftwaffe, but some Kriegsmarine), the real tests are not the three set out above, but rather method of construction and materials used. Postwar makers almost always get one of the two wrong. KMSPAIN is a real authority on Kriegsmarine caps and if he thinks it is real, that would be good enough for me. I am a new member here, so I don't know if this Forum has extensive postings on cap construction, but I know there are other forums where there are very extensive hat discussions and I would urge you to join them, too. I'm afraid it will take a lot of study (more than I am competent to give) to give you a level of comfort with caps. My only advice is: Don't believe automatically everything you read; instead, develop your own expertise through study and the handling of real items in the hands of specialists (such as KMSPAIN). Very best wishes, Harrier

This is one of the great research finds of the last 50 years! I hope you will be in a position to share this with the collecting community through the sale of CDs. There are a lot of people (myself included!) who would love to buy a set.

This appears to be the accepted Cobra logo in silver, so I would feel good about your cap. Some say that this logo, in black, is only used on reproductions, but I am not sure at all that this is correct. It is possible that the black logo may also have been used during the war. The quality of construction and component materials is the real key, I believe. The 'leder' stamp is also fine, but is reproduced also with accuracy on postwar caps.

Without trying to plug anyone, take at look at this: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...ht=21+oakleaves

Hi, Alex, There are several things that hit you at once. The "pebbling" is wrong, the overall finish is too flat, the stampings are the wrong font and the shape is off, just for a few. I wish I could post a real set side by side with this one, but in the absence of doing that I would refer you to Dietrich Maertz's fine new book on the Knight's Cross (or Gordon Williamson's older one) for some excellent illustrations of real examples by this maker. Real Oakleaves simply jump out at you with their quality. I feel sure a member here may have a set and be able to post them for you to see. Best wishes, Harrier

I am afraid this is a copy.

Well, certainly not a "paste" job! The photo shown first in this thread appears, now, to be a 2nd generation copy for publication. The tonal qualities are distorted. Great to see the original! This is an interesting cross.

I believe this must be a "paste" job in the studio (wartime done). The arms of the cross all seem to end in a fat "blob" and the ribbon, along the edge of his left collar, doesn't look natural.

Jacques, Thanks very much for your efforts. I hope, rather than water, you will find oil so that it will at least be profitable! Best, Harrier

Very nice job, and thanks! I must say that I appear, so far, to be in the minority here (which I fully accept without difficulty). I invite everyone, however, to take more looks at this, including at Scott's good work, and look closely at the head of the eagle, then follow it back down the curve of the tail. The head of the eagle, on standard crosses, does not match the head size of the one in Jacques' photos, nor does the curve flow back from the head, into the "shoulder" area and down to the end of the tail as on the cross in those photos. If you can picture in your mind the eagle on the "droop-tail" crosses we have all seen in the past (and considered bad) and then compare that image to what we are seeing here, I believe you will begin to wonder if this isn't that same style eagle or at least an eagle that is MUCH more in line with a "droop-tail" than a "standard tail". I'm sure, as Jacques says, that there are manufacturer's variations which deviate a bit from the standard eagle, but I am still convinced that what is shown in Jacques' photos is not "explainable" that way. Oh, for a crystal clear close-up wartime photo which no one could doubt....... Keep digging, Jacques!

An interesting cross and one which itself might be rejected by many on first glance. I hope a really good photo alone might satisfy your criteria. The added test of actually seeing one in person might not ever happen.......... Many thanks, again, for these great photos from the Heer and Kriegsmarine!

Thank you, Jacques, for taking the trouble to make these enlargements! I must still politely disagree with you at this point. I see no sign whatsoever of any outward curve to the tails, instead only a solid downward curve (very much like the end of the embroidery on an army general's collar tab). Whatever the end result, period photographs are our best source of information, and you have certainly shared a lot of good ones!

Looking forward to seeing the enlargements! I agree that it is difficult to say for sure, but I took all the Spanish Crosses in my collection (8), all of which have the standard eagles, and I could not get the angles or curvature to match the photo in Post 2. Maybe someone else will have better success.

The quality of the photos posted by Jacques is so good that they are very amenable to enlargement and other editing tools, including differing light shades. contrasts, etc. Some of the drop-tails may certainly be attributable to light and angle. The eagles on the soldier in Post 2, however, really are (IMHO) of the drop-tail (or droop-tail) variety. Jacques, of course, has the original photos in hand and may be able to see something we cannot. It is, of course, only prudent to be very careful in making such a statement, but I have tried every technique of photo examination that I know and I seriously believe now that Jacques has, by this excellent thread, provided photographic proof of the existence of the droop-tail eagle Spanish Cross. If I am wrong, I am sure others will be glad to tell me and I will be glad to listen!

Looking again under magnification, I do not think it is an illusion. Could anyone else say their opinion? These are all wonderful photos!

I think I have seen this pin structure on either Meybauer or Juncker World War One flight badges made in the '20's, but I don't have any photos.

I'm sure it must be an optical illusion, but are the soldiers in Posts 2 and 18 wearing crosses with drop-tailed eagles?

Thanks anyway! Your expertise in this area is simply wonderful. Best, Harrier

Sorry. One day I will figure it out. It is an "H". The document is in its original old frame marked: Kurt Bookhagen Kunsthandlung Bilder-Einrahmung Stettin, Monchenstr. 31 Fernsprecher 32380