PKeating

OK, so where does that leave us with the Hartmann badge, which reportedly bears just the 585 gold hallmark on the wreath? The Hartmann and G?ring badges, as shown in this topic, appear to be the same. I cannot remember any mark at all on the reverse of the Rudel badge but I handled it briefly as a callow youth almost thirty years ago, before one paid much attention to such details. PK

Such damage is often seen on otherwise clean, good badges brought back to the UK by returning service personnel because of the rule stipulating that they could only take damaged stuff as souvenirs. So many of them broke off pins or hooks, or both. Some denazified them, not because of any rule governing the swastika, but because it was a convenient way of damaging the piece to legalise it as a souvenir. Strange but true. PK

Interesting. It rings bells. Remind us: who was the individual in question? Now, do you think the genuine A-St?ck badges were made of gold and platinum or simply of yellow and white 14ct gold? As far as I know, none of the known original A-St?ck badges bears more than the .585 hallmark for 14ct gold. An eagle made of platinum should surely have been marked with an appropriate assay mark like the 950 PT mark seen on A-St?ck RK Brillanten, shouldn't it? PK

I'm not convinced that any German jeweller who did not have express permission to manufacture this award would take such a liberty, no matter how high-ranking or exalted his client. The award was a highly personal one from G?ring and recipients apparently received B-St?ck badges with their award pieces. Any recipient wanting extra wearing copies could presumably order them from the approved/recommended source. As for some recipients having more than one A-St?ck badge, how sure can we be of that? The A-St?ck badge was extremely costly and remained the property of the Reichsmarschall's office. It is hard to imagine G?ring's office allowing recipients to have more than one A-St?ck badge each. PK

If it's any consolation, replacing originals with fakes is one of the classic scams. It's been done to a lot of German veterans. It has also been done to many museum collections, from the Imperial War Museum downwards. If there is someone out there advertising medal remounting services and switching medals like this, he ought to be exposed for it. Mind you, without proof, one cannot accuse people. If you were done over in this way, it's a very expensive lesson, given the prices these medals are fetching. It is a shame that you did not consign them for auction through Whyte's as they were. Serious buyers wouldn't have cared about rotten ribbons. eBay is really the last place to offer anything nice. Whenever I want to offload something of quality, a successful sale for top dollar is never more than two or three telephone calls away. Mind you, you got a good price for the RDF BWM/VM pair. PK

This is the source, by the way. I'd say that the person who last remounted the medals must have replaced the ones you found in 1980 with these fakes. Hard to prove it for legal purposes, unless you have old, clear photos of the ones found in 1980 but you might get them back if you were to handle this matter Dublin-style. PK

In fact, I'd be fingering the guy who spun you that ludicrous story about splitting the rings to fit new ribbons. Sounds like he fobbed you off with that story when you noticed the rings weren't the same. What's this charmer's name? Is he still around? PK

C?ad m?le f?ilte romhat, Brendan! Nice to have a fellow Dub here. It is quite obvious from a persual of your eBay sales that you're a straight fellow. Perhaps I am suspicious and even rather cynical but it sounds as if one of the people to whom you entrusted the medals did you over by perhaps swapping the originals you found in that box back in 1980 for fakes. I know what I'd do if I were you. PK

I remember that website! I last looked at it about four years ago. So they're both copies and the vendor was 'exaggerating' with his take of finding these in Dublin back in 1980? So much for him... PK

The auction was stopped at ?2,700.00 today, with five hours to go, by the vendor. No explanation given. However, I rather like the answer regarding the rings of the medals and how ribbons are fitted. I wonder how much that Dublin medal collector paid for them. Or do you think the penny dropped and this chap withdrew them after realising that there was a problem? PK

Exactly. 800 crosses are probably a constant up to the point at which the firm begins applying the PK number. Some unmarked crosses with silver rims have been observed. These may just be anomalies. Non-silver crosses would not be marked at all as they are early pieces, certainly pre-dating the March 1941 ruling. So, your timeline is fine but the 800 mark could be a constant from 1939 to 1945. Of course, LDO-marked crosses would have been given to recipients from stock from mid-1941 through to the end of hostilities. However, if one were examining an RK grouping with documents and awards in which the award of the RK pre-dated 1944 and the cross carried a PK number, it would be reasonable to conclude that the cross had been added to the group sometime after the award. There would be a chance that the recipient had applied for a replacement in 1944 or 1945 and been given one from stock that happened to have the PK number hallmark. But there would be a greater chance that someone had enhanced the group much later by adding the cross. This is based upon the presumption that PK numbers were not applied until 1944, which seems to be a growing trend amongst collectors although I haven't seen any evidence to indicate that these numbers were not applied by firms earlier than 1944. PK

It's a fair assumption that LDO-marked Ritterkreuze - and EL and ELS - pre-date mid-1941, when the public sale of Germany's highest valour award was formally forbidden. The authorities confiscated all retail pieces, leaving licenced manufacturers with a few samples for their archives, and subsequently awarded them from stock, or supplied them to existing RKT upon request, alongside non-LDO-marked awards. It would seem that the PK marks appeared in 1944 but I do not think that has been absolutely established yet. However, your timeline seems reasonable: 800-marked pieces from 1939-on, L/12-marked pieces for a few months in 1941 with 2-marked pieces appearing later on. Don't forget unmarked pieces, made of silver and iron and all those illicit non-silver and iron crosses. PK

Perfect example. Here's a nice shot of one being worn during WW2 by a veteran. PK

Thanks for posting that, David. The description of the badge case conjures up the sort of case one would expect although some sources state that there were no cases for these awards and that they were delivered in ordinary jewellers' boxes. I find that hard to believe. John Angolia refers to Generalfeldmarschall Sperrle's badge but the badge shown is Hermann G?ring's example, acquired in London by Eric Campion and now owned by Chris Ailsby. There was apparently a casette for the document, as this photograph from The Ruptured Duck website shows. Other photos can be viewed by clicking here. Returning to the case described by John Angolia, it may have been a Perchermeier case - if his recollection was reliable - but it does not follow that Hermann G?ring commissioned the A-St?ck badges from the Perchermeier firm. There again, Perchermeier name appears on a couple of lists of pre-1945 medals and orders suppliers. It's not a very common name and there is a Siegfried Perchermeier currently listed as a jeweller in Bad Reichenhall. That is less than twenty miles from Berchtesgaden, where Der Dicke had a house. Might be worth getting in touch with Siegfried Perchermeier and asking him if his family firm made things for G?ring. PK

Here is the most complete list of known recipients to date: ANGERSTEIN, Karl D?NITZ, Karl HIMMLER, Heinrich DIETRICH, Sepp HARTMANN, Erich Von BLOMBERG, Werner HARLINGHAUSEN, Martin Von BRAUCHITSCH, Walter GALLAND, Adolf BAUMBACH, Werner G?RING, Hermann JESCHONNEK, Hans BODENSCHATZ, Karl Ritter Von GREIM, Robert KORTEN, G?nter BAUR, Hans GRAFF, Hermann KELLER, Alfred Von BELOW, Nicolaus GOLLOB, Gordon KESSELRING, Albert CHRISTIANSEN, Friedrich Von GABLENS, Carl - August KAMMHUBER, Josef KASTNER - KIRDORF, Gustav PARANI, Albert STUDENT, Kurt LOHR, Alexander PELTZ, Friedrich TRETTNER, Heinrich LENT, Helmut PFLUGBEIL, Johanus UDET, Ernst LOERZER, Bruno ROMMEL, Erwin RAMCKE, Bernard WEVER, Walther M?LDERS, Werner Von RICHTHOFEN, Wolfram REITSCH, Hanna SKORZENY, Otto MILCH, Erhard SPERRLE, Hugo NAVRATIL, Frederick NOWOTHY, Walter STUMPFF, Hans-Jurgen von MANSTEIN, Erich RUDEL, Hans - Ulrich SCHNAUFER, Helmut Foreign recipients: BORIS, King of Bulgaria MUSSOLINI, Benito VUILLEMIN General MORAGILIA General d Asti? de la V?gerie Colonel PETITJEAN Colonel de Geffri?r Commandent (Mej?r) SCHMIDLEIN Capitaine ANTONESCU, Ion HORTHY, Niklos BALBO, Italo VALLE, Ugo FRANCO, Francisco von MANNERHEIM, Carl Gustav Emil, Baron That makes sixty-one badges. Charles Lindbergh is said by some to have been given the badge but I haven't found any verifiable references to this. Mind you, he would have been a perfect candidate from G?ring's point of view. General Dessloch isn't listed as having receiving the Combined Pilot-Observer Badge with Diamonds. Yet that really looks like a B-St?ck badge in the photograph. Unless I am mistaken, the swastika even appears to have lost some stones. So, assuming Dessloch was a recipient, that takes it to sixty-two known investitures. There is also a photograph of General Dietl wearing a PO Badge with Diamonds, which takes us to sixty-three known holders. PK

Hans-Ulrich Rudel wearing his badge. Reflecting on Dave Danner's comment, the badge sold by Niemann for $60k might not be the same as the badge attributed to Erhard Milch by Wolfe-Hardin but one thing is certain: neither of them resembles the known, original A-St?ck badges shown here. PK

Yeah, well, these guys get so many of these things through their hands each week that they're bound to make mistakes from time to time. Mind you, it works both ways: a mate of mine bought a genuine Zimmermann RK from a top dealer the other day for ?50. The guy handles so many Ritterkreuze that he mistook it for a Latvian fake. PK

Stu, Don't be discouraged! It doesn't take long to absorb the basics. And you have the right attitude as well. Which is why those of us who have been close to these things for years will always be happy to help. Not that we're all infallible! I learn something new every day. Did you post that Godet 1870 EK2 somewhere? I'd like to see it. PK

Looking at the lower edge of the eagle's left wing - to the right as we view the photos - I see a similarity between the A-St?ck reportedly sold by Detlev Niemann for ?60,000.00 and the A-St?ck attributed by Wolfe-Hardin to Erhard Milch. Looking at the Hartmann and G?ring badges, the way in which this part of the eagle's wing is formed is quite different to the outline presented by the badges proposed by Niemann and Wolfe-Hardin. This cannot be said to be due to handfinishing with files because the wings were fashioned as frames to function as settings for the stones. Bill Stump was certain about one thing: he believed the B-St?ck badges to have been made by Rudolf St?biger of Vienna and that the A-St?ck badges were made by German jewellers. Given that the badges are clearly different in terms of details like the shape of the eagles' wings and the fact that the B-St?ck wearing copies accepted as originals bear St?biger's hallmark, this seems reasonable. We can dismiss the Skorzeny, engraved "Milch" and Sperrle badges as fakes on the basis of the benchmark afforded by the Hartmann badge. So what are we to think of the two badges proposed by Messrs Wolfe and Hardin and by Herr Niemann when we study the various photographs and scans posted in this thread? Different jewellers between 1935 and 1945? Or are we looking at postwar copies? PK

This "Milch" badge doesn't look much like the Wolfe-Hardin "Milch" badge, does it? But is the Wolfe-Hardin "Milch" A-St?ck badge the same as the Hartmann, G?ring and Rudel badges? PK

According to Bill Stump: The badge shown by Bill Stump appears to be the badge offered for sale by War Relics. You can even see the abrasions to the rear of the wreath mentioned in the War Relics spiel. Yet the War Relics spiel was quite clear in its description of the hallmarks on the Dessloch B-St?ck badge. According to them, the Dessloch badge was made of silver and bore the IMIT marks, along with hallmarks for silver content, Vienna and the St?biger firm. Did Bill Stump get it wrong when he remembered Dessloch's badge as being made of gold and platinum? PK

A better version of the Dessloch photo. PK

Here is a snapshot, posted on the WAF years ago by the late Bill Stump, of the reverse of the Dessloch badge, which Bill stated was in Bob Hritz's collection. You can see the hallmarks to which the War Relics description refers, along with the abrasions where an attempt was made to obliterate the IMIT stamp on the wreath. PK

Image from www.axishistory.com Let's leave the A-St?ck badges for a while and have a look at the B-St?ck badges, which were made of gilded silver with cheaper stones. Here's a well known photograph of Generalleutnant Dessloch wearing a B-St?ck badge, identifiable here by the form of the pin. This badge was reportedly sold by www.warrelics.com for $12,500.00 US. Here is the badge sold by War Relics. It has been denazified. Here is their spiel, which can be checked on http://www.warelics.com/gallery.html: Comments? PK

Courtesy of Dietrich Maerz - Image from Detlev Niemann's website Is this badge, reportedly sold by Niemann for ?60,000.00, the same as the Hartmann and G?ring badges? PK