PKeating

Thank you, Chris, for posting the G?ring badge. I believe, if memory serves me correctly, that you acquired this from Eric Campion, who had acquired it along with other items from G?ring's estate back in the 1940s. Campion saved it from being broken up by Hatton Garden jewellers, didn't he? Anyway, for the benefit of viewers, here are the G?ring and Hartmann badges side by side. It is quite clear that these are the same. One can see that the Rudel badge is also the same, the photograph notwithstanding. The unfortunate conclusion to be drawn is that the Sperrle, Skorzeny and Milch badges are fakes. Rudel's awards were exhibited in a museum in London's Whitehall, set up by the "Porn King" Paul Raymond, and were the subject of quite a celebrated High Court case when Rudel's widow sued for their return. They had been stolen from Rudel after his surrender by a British Military Policeman. PK

Doesn't the Hartmann badge have the 14ct "585" hallmark? PK

Kev, The 1916 groups are from Whyte's website. I wish I had a 1916 medal. One of these days... I just have the War of Independence Service Medals. Speaking of which, I noticed the jump ring differences too. However, I have seen thick and thin jump rings on original War of Independence Service Medals in the hands of veterans or veterans? families. I think the eBay WISM is probably okay but it?ll be interesting to see what response you get. You?ll see an innocuous question there from me. Regarding casualties in the Anglo-Irish War, or War of Independence, people are often surprised by the relatively low figures. Most historians appear to agree on a figure of around 1,400 on all sides. The Police Service of Northern Ireland, which is the heir via the RUC to the old RIC, lists 418 members of the Royal irish Constabulary killed, compared to 146 British solldiers. The IRA targeted the RIC more than the British Army because, for one things, the police weren?t as skilled in arms as trained soldiers and it was therefore easier to raid their barracks and, having suppressed resistance, make off with the contents of their armouries. The Civil War, in contrast, resulted in more than 4,000 deaths in just eleven months. It could have been a lot worse. Look at Spain, some fifteen years later: over a million people died, roughly a quarter of Spain?s population at the time. There again, the IRA volunteers who rebelled against the Treaty were under-equipped and no match for the Free State Army, which fought the rebels with extreme brutality, often taking no prisoners or else ensuring that prisoners taken didn?t live very long. My grandfather was sent to Cork to get a grip of the Free State units there after complaints were received in Dublin from prominent Cork people about the public torture and killing of IRA prisoners. A favourite method was to drag them to death behind trucks as the mob cheered. Setting fire to gasoline-soaked prisoners and taking bets on how long they remained standing or running about was another favourite too. Of course, if you bring this kind of thing up in a revisionist Ireland, where the only villains were the Black and Tans, people don?t like it. The IRA did some awful things as well. But they were more sinned against than sinners. The Treaty was only accepted because De Valera took Lloyd-George?s threat to flood Ireland with a million men-under-arms seriously. De Valera set Collins up to take the fall for it too. Mind you, Collins probably wouldn?t have made a good peacetime leader. He was too prone to resorting to violence to make his point. Anyway...ancient history! Paul, Thanks for the clarification of the naming process. I?ll ask my aunt when the family applied for and received Dr Shannon?s medal. I know he died when she was quite young but he was certainly alive in the 1960s. PK

I had the group for a a little while. I fondly entertained notions of using it as leverage to acquire an FJ-related RK group. As you know, I almost bought Rudolf Witzig's preliminary RK document for Eben Emael, along with his Kretaschild, a while back but was probably overly cautious and someone else got it, with my blessing. It went to the best home for it, to Heer FJ collector Numero Uno. Mind you, it sort of fitted in with my SS-FJ interest because Witzig's men fought alongside SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500 in the Baltic in autumn 1944. No <i>Ritterkreuze</i> for the SS-FJ! Just an Ehrenblattspange for Drvar and a handful of DKiG for the Oderfront. One officer did get the RK but afterwards, after transferring to another unit. Still, I am a patient man. Something nice will turn up. PK

I'll give you that, Bob! You're almost there. His last couple of victories were in <i>turbojäger</i>. P

It certainly does look smaller than it should look beside the Independence medal. Well-spotted! It must be a cast copy. That would explain not just the fuzzy detail and pitting but the dodgy colour and the fact that it appears to be smaller than the known originals from the White's auction. The vendor might not know. I was looking at his other sales and he seems reasonable enough. It might be an old fake or copy. They've been faking these things since the 1966 anniversary. I think they also produced some copies then, cast from an original and sold as commemorative copies. If the story about finding them in the house in a tin is true, it's possible that some elderly Walt like the thousands who convinced the Irish government that they were eligible for the WISM mounted the fake 1916 medal with his non-combattant's WISM and posed down the pub. It's a bit like all the old gits here in France who tell you they were with la R?sistance. If the IRA had been as large as the medal roll and all those awards in the 1950s and 1960s suggest, the War of Independence would have over somewhat faster! LOL! PK

The metal doesn't look right where that eBay 1916 medal is concerned. Perhaps it's due to oxidisation. Perhaps the lack of detail and the pitting are due to the medal having been "restored" by aggressive cleaning to remove verdigris, followed by chemical toning to try to make it look old again. Maybe the clown who mounted the medals like that cleaned it up? Just for interest, an officially named WISM with Comrac clasp. Dr Shannon was one of my great-uncles. I am told that officers' medals were issued named. PK

The War of Independence Service Medal looks real at a glance but I share your doubts about the 1916 Medal. It looks neither like a period original nor one of the official reissues from the 1960s. I'm also a bit thrown by the tale about storage conditions that caused the original ribbons to disintegrate but had no apparent effect upon the medals. I'd also expect to see a Comrac clasp on the WISM although I am sure some non-combattant recipients qualified for the 1916 medal. Are we getting too paranoid? PK

There is an amusing symmetry to being teased for excessive caution by you. I reconsidered what I wrote after remembering hearing about Hartmann's disposal of his awards. As far as I can remember, Hartmann's badge looks just like Rudel's badge, which I handled many years ago. I believe that Adolf Galland acquired a copy of his badge sometime after the war. That's an interesting theory about Rudolf St?biger. Dr Kurt Klietmann attributed the A-St?ck and B-St?ck badges to Rudolf St?biger and St?biger's son confirmed on more than one occasion that his father's firm produced them. Do you have another maker in mind? Are you aware that when the RK Brillanten grade was instituted on 15.7.1941, Godet sub-contracted the setting of the diamonds to the Paris branch of the American firm of Tiffany? While G?ring was not involved in this, it shows that the German government of the day had no problems with commissioning foreign firms to carry out work for them. Another American firm known as IBM supplied the Gestapo with the filing system that enabled the Final Solution. The RK Brillanten contract was then given to Klein, probably because G?ring made such a scene about what he saw as the low quality of the diamonds used in the prototypical and early pieces supplied by Godet. I don't see why Hermann G?ring would balk at having his PO Badge with Diamonds award produced by an Austrian jeweller in 1935. He was quite a cultivated man and very old school. Some of the best European Art Deco jewellery came out of Vienna, which had a long tradition of fine jewellery dating back to Hapsburg times. G?ring's F?hrer was Austrian. The unification of Germany and Austria was already on the cards. There was a lot of commerce between the two countries. What would have prevented Hermann G?ring from commissioning Herr St?biger? PK

I agree with Christopher Ailsby. Christopher raised a good point in a PM to me, which I know he shan't mind my repeating here: the badges were supposed to be returned to G?ring's office upon the death of the recipient so why would a recipient have one engraved? There again, SS Honour Rings were supposed to be returned upon the recipient's death but were awarded engraved. However, these badges do not appear to have been awarded engraved so having them privately engraved would surely amount to vandalism of the Reichsmarschall's property. PK

The Hartmann badge certainly embodies the features and finesse I recall from handling a couple of originals many years ago. PK

Just as a matter of interest, how do you know the Hartmann badge is genuine? If it really can be established as a genuine period example by Rudolf St?biger, that suggests that the three badges attributed here to Erhard Milch, Otto Skorzeny and Hugo Sperrle are all fakes. However, the young St?biger was apparently quite adamant that these badges were hallmarked. I believe that it would have been illegal not to do so but perhaps I am wrong. PK

They are all different, period. As for badges shown here that appear to be silver-gilt, they look nothing like the original B-St?ck badges, which bore hallmarks and the letters "IMIT" on the reverse. The Skorzeny ensemble was listed on Manion's with a reserve of $54,000.00 US. I know that a couple of people were recently involved in producing high end fakes of the PO Badge with Diamonds, using gold and platinum, but I haven't seen one of these fakes or, rather, am not aware of having seen one. Perhaps there is one shown in this topic... PK

Milch and Hartmann. I see various detail differences when studying, for instance, the leaves and the eagles' wings. PK

Herr St?biger's recollections might not be reliable. However, before we get into the question of hallmarks, let's compare the Hartmann and Skorzeny pieces side-by-side. It would be better without your name obscuring key details. I understand your reasons and I have also started putting watermarks and copyright notices on my images but you could perhaps use thinner letters. The image would remain protected but more visible. However, the fact is that these two badges came from different moulds. They are simply not the same. PK

G?ring commissioned these badges from Rudolf St?biger, a Viennese jeweller. According to Christopher Ailsby's book A Collector's Guide to World War 2 German Medals and Political Awards, St?biger's son stated that the firm produced seventy badges in total. As with certain other firms in Germany and Austria, one must presume that the St?biger firm was approached after the war by people asking them to reproduce these badges. They certainly responded to enquiries about the badges. St?biger fils apparently said that the early badges had the "shop number" scratched under the hinge, much as a watchmaker marks a watch upon which he has worked. After Austria was united with Germany in 1938, the firm stamped their logo "R.St." on the reverse of the eagle. St?biger reportedly described the eagles as made of platinum and the wreaths of 22 ct gold, which is the purest form of gold one can use for jewellery as 24 ct gold bends as easily as lead. 22 ct gold is still quite soft but stable enough for the purpose. The Skorzeny badge bears a 14 ct gold hallmark under the hinge and no mark of any kind is visible on the reverse of the eagle. St?biger Jr recalled that the silver-gilt dress copies were made in the same way as the award badges and bore hallmarks relating to the silver grade, manufacturer and place of manufacture, plus the letters "IMIT" stamped into the wreath. If the younger St?biger's recollections are reliable, the Milch badge pictured would appear to be a post-1938 example, which is interesting, given the award date engraved on the reverse. PK

Here is Skorzeny's CV, from his personnel file, written in his own hand. The 1938 CV accompanying the badge and its document could be genuine but I thought I might as well post this. I find it quite interesting that the engraving on the reverse of the Skorzeny badge resembles Skorzeny's handwriting. Maybe Skorzeny, taking it to be engraved himself afterwards as Hermann G?ring probably didn't have the time, what with the mad rush to get the train out for the trip to Eastern Prussia, wrote down his name and rank on the order form and the engraver presumed that he should copy the style. PK

Here is a photocopy of a document from Otto Skorzeny's personnel file. It is the second page of a report to the Reichsf?hrer-SS regarding the confirmation of Skorzeny's DKiG for Unternehmen Panzerfaust in October 1944. You can see the date of his EK1 and Ritterkreuz for the Gran Sasso mission: 12.9.43. Note the date given for the award of the "Flg.Abz.in Gold": 1.12.44. Yet the award document accompanying the above badge is dated 16.9.1943. In Charles Foley's book Commando Extraordinary, based on Foley's interviews with Skorzeny in Spain a year or so after the latter's escape from British custody, reference is made to G?ring presenting Skorzeny with the "Gold Medal of the Airforce" at Rastenburg when Skorzeny visted Hitler there shortly after the Gran Sasso rescue mission. However, Dr Kurt Klietmann's essay on the badge, in his seminal reference work on Third Reich awards, gives the time of the award to Skorzeny of the Gemeinsames Flugzeugf?hrer und Beobachterabzeichen in Gold mit Brillanten as autumn 1944. This ties in with the date given in the report to Himmler from a Brigadef?hrer on the Reichsf?hrer's personal staff. I always thought Skorzeny was awarded the badge by G?ring after Panzerfaust, the Nazi-sponsored coup d'?tat led by Skorzeny in Hungary in October 1944. I tend to place more faith in the facts as recorded by the SS-F?hrungs-Hauptamt and the office of the Reichsf?hrer-SS. While this might seem a bit of a red herring, it is worth pointing out that in his book on German medals and badges, Christopher Ailsby quotes a letter to a militaria magazine from Andrew Mollo back in 1981. Mollo expressed his belief that there were three grades of the Combined Pilot-Observer Badge: the basic award, the Diamonds award and a solid gold type which, according to Mollo, was awarded by G?ring to King Boris of Bulgaria and Benito Mussolini. Mollo also contended that Himmler received this solid gold class and suggested that it was subsequently upgraded with diamonds. Himmler received the Diamonds PO Badge in July 1942 and the award was instituted in 1935, the first two being given to Wever and Milch. No solid gold PO Badge without Diamonds from the 1935-1945 period has ever been observed. The confusion might have arisen because of contemporary references like Skorzeny's recollection of "gold airforce medals" and file entries like the one I have shown here. There again, perhaps someone intended to introduce a solid gold badge into the marketplace back in 1981... Regarding the award document, I would expect to see an embossed seal on a document related to an award conceived by and in the personal gift of Hermann G?ring, in the manner of similar documents for awards like the Ehrenpokal. But, hey, what do I know? I'm just a document collector and amateur historian with a cold-eyed, investigative journalistic approach to establishing facts. PK

Side-by-side comparison of the badges spanning the 1935 - 1943 timeline. As Rick (Stogieman) points out, there appear to be some major differences. These badges were made by jewellers but the main components were cast and ought to resemble each other in terms of surface detailing, differences due to hand-chasing and finishing around the edges apart. The same goes for the gold awards as well as the wearing copies said to have been given to recipients at the award ceremonies. I am also quite suspicious of the Skorzeny ensemble and would want verifiable provenance, especially if spending that kind of money with an institution noted for selling Hitler cigarette boxes and onyx-centred 1939 Grand Crosses. PK

Simon asked for my input but I only just saw this so hopefully it's not too late. What a wonderful Normandy group! Fallschirmj?ger-Rgt 9 was formed in January 1944 and virtually annihilated in the Falaise Gap in August 1944. Reformed, the new regiment was again wiped out in March 1945. I love the reference to combatting "terrorists" at Maubeuge on 2.9.1944 on his close combat days attestation. Fallschirmschule 4 was set up at Dreux in 1942 but renamed Fallschirmschule 1 late in 1943, although it had nothing to do with the original Fallschirmschule 1 set up in Stendal in 1936, the Fallschirmshule 4 designation being given to a new facility at Salzwedel. One sees tradition badges entered into paybooks sometimes. In some cases, divisions and units even made up award certificates for them. Jean-Yves Nasse has a soldbuch with a Komet entry made in 1945. This is the first 3. FJD entry I have seen although I have heard of them. Your man was probably given the badge to make the point that he was an original member of the regiment and its division and a veteran of Normandy. Below is an original 3. FJD tradition badge. This is the horizontal pin type. The more common type - relatively speaking as these badges are very scarce - has a horizontal pin. They were worn on the side of the 1943 pattern field cap but I have one photo, taken in the Breton toen of Huelgoat on the day of Richard Schimpf's arrival in February 1944 to take command of the division, showing a divisional staff officer wearing one on the pocket of his four-pocket tunic, in the manner of the squadron badges worn by flyers. FJR9 was stationed in and around the coastal town of Daoulas. Raised in Reims under Hauptmann Bodo G?ttsche and commanded by Major Kurt Stephani from 1.2.1944 until his death in action at Falaise on 20.8.1944 was virtually annihilated at Falaise. Major Friedrich Alpers assumed temporary command of the survivors until 3.9.1944 before handing over to Obstlt Gundolf Freiherr Schenk zu Schweinsberg in Belgium, where FJR 9 was also reformed. Here is an extract from a chapter for a book on the Fallschirmj?ger in France which I never bothered completing after I realised the publishers were muppets. You might find it interesting to see where young Fellhofer got his Erdkampf and Verwundetenabzeichen. PK

Apart from his 41 or 43 victories - depending on the source - what makes Stollnberger special? PK

Let?s see your Fallschirmtruppe EK2 award documents. To kick things off, here is a classic Fall Gelb document, issued in the Hague and signed by Generalmajor Putzier, who took temporary command of 7. Fliegerkorps after General Student took an accidental bullet in the head from a nervous SS-VT soldier who happened to be passing and took a potshot when Student looked out the window of his command post. Martin K?hne, who died quite recently, was born in 1918 and had what used to be known as ?a good war?. Oberfahnrich K?hne came to Fallschirmj?ger-Regiment 1 from Flak-Rgt 10 in 1939, completing his parachute training at Wittstock. K?hne ended the war as a Major with Fallschirmj?ger-Rgt 10. He held the Ritterkreuz, DKiG, Ehrenpokal, EK1, EK2 and VAiS (Black Wound Badge). He fought in Holland, Greece, Crete, Russia, North Africa, Italy and other places in the Mediterranean theatre of operations. In April 1940, Leutnant K?hne was a Zugf?hrer (Platoon Commander) in 2./Fallschirmj?ger-Erganzungs-Btl 1 at Stendal. This sub-unit was sent to Twede Tol with others to create a reserve from which replacements and reinforcements could move easily by requisitioned vehicles, including bicycles, to the south end of the Moerdijk bridges and North Dordrecht. However, he was apparently with 15./FJR1 as a platoon commander for the Moerdijk jump and certainly saw action during the battle, winning this EK2 for leading a successful assault on a heavily defended bunker, an action in which he was wounded. Perhaps someone here can shed more light on this. At Corinth, K?hne and his men captured British anti-aircraft battery and took many prisoners. K?hne was recommended for the Ritterkreuz but received the EK1 instead. In North Africa, he took part in the Ramckebrigade?s extraordinary two-hundred mile trek from El Alamein back to German lines in November 1942, for which he received the DKiG. He fought at Anzio-Nettuno, Cassino and other places but his finest moment was Fall Leopard, the capture of the Greek island of Leros in November 1943, which brought him the Ritterkreuz. By then, Hauptmann K?hne was CO of I./Fallschirmj?ger-Rgt 2. Leros was defended by an 8550-strong Anglo-Italian force, commanded by the British General Tillney and supported by heavy artillery. The airborne element of the attacking force comprised elements of I./FJR2, 15. (Fallschirm) Kompanie and elements of 22. Luftlande-Division. The seaborne element consisted of the Brandenburg Division?s III./Leichtes-Infanterie-Rgt, assisted by Brandenburger K?stenj?ger-Abteilung (Coastal Raiders) commandos. Just after 1300 hrs on 12.11.1943, 2. and 4./FJR2 jumped with the Brandenburg Division?s 15. (Fallschirm) Kompanie and moved quickly off the DZ to capture Monte Rachi, one of the highest points on Leros. Once the Fallschirmj?ger had driven a wedge between the defending forces in the north and south by the afternoon of 13.11.1943, the rest of I./FJR2 jumped as other reinforcements were arriving by sea. However, the defenders were resisting ferociously and victory was by no means a certainty for the Germans. On 14.11.1943, supported by Stukas, the Fallschirmj?ger mounted an assault on the British HQ on Monte Meroviglia but were beaten off and had to fall back to their positions on Monte Rachi. The next day, K?hne pulled his paras from their shellscrapes and shallow trenches and they stormed Monte Meroviglia, routing the defenders. On 16.11.1943, Leutnant Max Wandrey, commanding the Brandenburg paras, captured General Tillney. By nightfall on 18.11.1943, all Allied forces on Leros had surrendered. This document was reportedly given to the author Klaus Peters by Martin K?hne as a present when Peters was researching his two-volume photo-history of Fallschirmj?ger-Regiment 3. The document was acquired by George Petersen who later sold it to Robert Queenm from whom I bought it, thanks to my friend Eric Queen, author of Red Shines The Sun, the definitive reference book on the Heer's Fallschirm-Infanterie-Kompanie/Bataillon, many former members of which formed the cadre of FJR3 via II./FJR1. I believe the rest of Martin K?hne's documents remain with his family, including the formal Ritterkreuz document, K?hne being one of the relatively few to receive a formal document at that stage of the war. Paddy Keating

Hard to say. I would tend to view it as unfortunate. That said, I have Martin K?hne's EK2 document for Moerdijk in 1940, when he was with II./Fallschirmj?ger-Rgt 1. K?hne got the RK for Leros as CO of I./FJR2 in 1943 and the DKiG at Cassino. The rest of the group remains with the family but Herr K?hne apparently made a present of the EK2 document to Klaus Peters when the latter was researching his Fallschirmj?ger-Rgt 3 books. Peters sold the document to George Petersen afterwards, who subsequently sold it to Robert Queen, from whom I acquired it. It's the closest I have so far come to a Fallschirmj?ger RKT in document terms. I missed the Witzig preliminary document for Eben Emael a couple of years ago. Had K?hne not given this EK2 document to Peters, I wouldn't have it now. Should I offer it back to the K?hne family? Is it unethical to keep it? Am I perpetuating group-splitting? Uncomfortable questions, aren't they? How many of us have things in our collections that might not bear close scrutiny in an ethical context? I don't think the veterans who gave things to Klaus Peters intended that he should turn around and sell them as soon as he had finished his books. Peters has been criticised in the past for this by various people but some might argue that the recipient of a gift is free to do whatever he likes with that gift. Tricky issue! Maybe other members can give their opinions. Veterans often make gifts like this to people they like. It explains why so many German groups are missing EK2 documents! They have the right to do this because no money is involved. The shame is that the recipients of such gifts sometimes sell them afterwards. There again, I suppose they have the right to sell them. I think the question of ethics only arises when a complete group is acquired by a dealer or a collector who then breaks it up for financial gain. A veteran has the right to do whatever he likes with his awards and effects. I would always advise veterans against splitting but would never view them in the same light as a dealer or collector who splits up a group. PK

Splitting up groups is vandalism. If collectors cannot afford high end groups like the ones seen on the market in the last couple of years, then the asking prices are simply too high. Selling and buying items from groups recently split up should be treated in the same way we treat the issue of trading in stolen items. It should attract the same stigma. We can perhaps forgive splittings that occurred years and decades ago but there should be zero tolerance for it today. Oh, and I have "put up", in that I have several groups that are unsaleable as a whole because of artificially inflated price levels. I could sell them if I broke them up but I won't. So I am left with groups that are valuable but unsaleable as things stand. I managed to rescue one of the groups and some of the man's photos but not before his album had been ripped to shreds and sold off piecemeal. I got some of the photos from it, including a set of snapshots from 1944 with greetings written in the 1950s by survivors on the veteran's business cards. These had been mounted on a page in the album. But the rest were scattered to the four winds. Nobody will ever convince me that this is a defensible practice. In this case, the man had wanted his papers and photos to go to someone he had nominated but his family disregarded that as soon as the dealer called up with a cash offer. Bloody vultures! PK

The good news for today is that I'm beginning to think this FSS might be original. That's the effect the fakers and bent dealers have on our hobby. They render us cautious to the point of paranoia. Of course, this image isn't good enough by itself but there is another known original FSS, part of a grouping, that looks very like this one. I still think certain things look odd about it but other things appear spot-on. You can never be too careful... PK