Les

Powerful reading. The common solider often got nothing more than something to cover the face, and a spot in a mass grave. Getting a medal required having someone -see- you do something and live to report it, and if you were a German that usually meant no posthumous awards at all. Les

Mike, Austrian and German brow plates are all the same size; there's no difference and a German plate can fit an Austrian helmet, or vice versa. The Austrian plates have cloth straps (the German ones are usually leather) and other than the paint color (Austrians used brown to match the helmet), Austrian plates sometimes turn up with a cloth glued or pasted on the front surface of the plate. Austrian helmet lugs are the same as the German ones, and if there is any difference, the helmet was probably repaired at a later date. If you check ebay for example, replacement lugs (one type only) are available for sale these days. I've come aross German helmets with one or both lugs missing, and where lugs have been replaced. Les

Mike, The "step" is used to create a specific space for the attachment of a one-size-fits-all "Stirnpanzer" or brow plate to any of the mid to later war German/Austrian/Hungarian WWI helmets, with the exception of the Austrian made Berndorfer. The smaller the helmet size, the large the "step" is so the distance between the contact points on the brow plate and helmet remains constant. A size 66 or 68 helmet doesn't have the step. A size 64 has a small one, and the "largest" step of all is found on a size 60. An aside on Austrian helmets in the US. They are relatively common in Pennsylvania and Ohio, because American national guard units from those two states found themselves up against Austrian troops first near the St. Mihiel sector, a few weeks later in the Meuse-Argonne, and then during the last days of the war, US units rotated out of the Meuse-Argonne were sent back to the St. Mihiel sector to "hold the line" and were back in contact with Austro-Hungarian troops ----again. The Austrians capitaulated on November 4, 1918, a week before the Germans did. Austrian units on the western front simply dropped much of their gear and headed for the rear, and American troops finding "dumped" helmets and field gear were less than hesitant about picking up easily acquired souvenirs that wound up back in their home towns, and states they came from. I had numerous Austrian, and "Hungarian" variant helmets, with and without camo patterns. Prices vary, however, there is a considerable market in Italy for Austrian helmets, and those in prime condition with factory ink acceptance stamps are usually snapped up by the Italian collectors and dealers. Prices on these? I try to avoid saying some one else's item is worth "x" amount. Value or price is a highly subject matter in many cases. Instead of putting a price tag on yours, I'd say it was a good mid-range piece, that is a solid example of what an Austrian helmet looks like, but doesn't show some of the more unual features often found on other examples (for instance the use of colored gingham or other fabrics for the "pillow" holders, and cloth pockets. Some of the materials used on Austrian helmets can get downright bizarre. Les

Mark, thanks. It's a private purchase tunic with the straps made from the same cord material the tunic is, and are sewn into the seams. That's enough to show the tunic was made for someone in aviation rather than a tunic with "add ons" usually encountered on officer items. It's not an issue piece, however, I'm -not- complaining. Les

Here's one of the items from my collection heading into storage while I'm in the process of selling the homstead and relocating across town. Soooooo.....here's a wee glimpse of a particular tunic that's real, and not often the mucked about ones almost always being fobbed off as real. Enjoy it until I can dig it out and take better photos in a few months... Les

Darrell, Sean Beane is back as Richard Sharpe, in "Sharpe's Challenege." The programme is being aired in a two parter starting this weekend, in the UK, and on BBC America "sometime this century"...... Sharpe has survived the Napoleonic Wars, and the time frame is 1817, and back in the Raj. Some of the folks in that poster/collage Robin put on-line are among the "departed." What's the situation with the author being in a lobster back uniform???? I don't seem to recall seeing BC in any of the series, or did I miss something in there? Les

Stogie...I agree. I'd be interested in seeing if the piece is a post-war Godet made piece, a "knock off" by Hammerle (no markings mentioned....?), or yet another possible fake? Some of the stories, such as the cigars, etc, have a fair amount of entertainment value. I doubt Udet, the bon vivant that he was, would have let those cigars go to waste.... Perhaps that old expression "nice try, but no cigars" would have been the way to approach -that- story? (Free ,unpaid advertisement for another PlM on the market at this moment, follows:) Meanwhile there's a perfectly good post-war Wagner made piece being offered in the "for sale" section of the forum here, that comes without a story and...is as close as one can get to a wartime piece made from the original dies, at a fraction of the price of a wartime one. Les

The family in the 1920's were interested in bringing the body back to Schweidnitz, to be buried next to the father (Albrecht) and MvR's brother (Lothar). The German government heard and asked the family if the body could be interred in the Invalidenfriedhofen, in Berlin. This was done, and that's were matters stood until 1975. In 1945, with the Russians moving towards Berlin, the Richtofen family were evacuated westwards and the family graves left. After the war, the town council of what used to be Schweidnitz, and these days part of Poland, decided that the graveyard in the center of town could be used for other than burial plots. The grave markers were removed, grass planted, and the land used as a park. Today, Albrecht v. Richtofen, Lothar v. Richtofen (PlM -"aviation" - recipient) lie in unmarked graves. If MvR had been moved "home" as the family hoped in 1925, he may now be lying in non-German soil in an unmarked grave. In 1961, the DDR built the "wall", and MvR's gravesite in the Invaliden was almost directly next to the wall (five feet or about 1.5 meters). In the mid-1970's the DDR announced that the "death strip" along the wall was going to be expanded, with graves either being moved, headstones and all vegetation removed, and so on. The family asked to move his body, rather than have the grave marker removed, etc. Some refer to the Weisbaden site as a "family cemetary" although he is buried next to his mother, sister, and younger brother Bolko. The "family" is partly there, but that is not the "ancestral" family grave site. It's were the remnants and surviving family members ended up after fleeing the Russians and the aftermath of the division and occupation of Germany following the end of WWII. Les

Hermann Historica is offering a large selection of items on ebay this week. One of the items is a "1928" replacement copy of a PlM and letter sent to Udet from Hammerle, the Munich jeweler that Udet tried to buy a PlM from in 1918. http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/6756-Erns...621999848QQrdZ1 The following is excerpted from the item description: "Display item 1928, present of the jewellers and medal makers Hemmerle Brothers in Munich, Maximilianstr. 41 for Ernst Udet. Bronze, fire-gilded. In the original Hemmerle case. With it comes a letter of the jewellers dated March 20th, 1928 dealing with the sending of the medal (transl.): "Dear Udet! In spring 1918 you came to our shop and asked for a "Pour le m?rite" we unfortunately did not have in stock. Today, almost exactly 10 years later, the same thing again! Lest you don't have to look for your lost P.l.M. in the deep snow of the Zugspitze plateau, we can only provide you with this display item ..." In addition to the mentioned objects (i.e. medal, case, letter) a repair invoice of the Hemmerle Brothers, a commemorative sheet of Fighter Squadron 4 on the occasion of the bestowal of the Pour le m?rite on April 9th, 1918 with two cigars, the inside with the order of the menu served during the award-giving ceremony, and a humorous watercolour painting. Udet lay wounded in a Munich military hospital, when the P.l.m. was bestowed upon him on April 9th, 1918. Due to the fact that he wanted to wear it immediately, he turned to the Brothers Hemmerle, who were not able to supply him with the medal. In 1928 he lost his P.l.m., an equivalent replacement could not be provided immediately by Hemmerle. With it comes a proof of origin. Cf. Hermann Historica, auction 36, 17. October 1998, lot 6264." The PlM looks like a Godet piece. Hammerle is still in business in Munich and it would be interesting if one of the forum members living in Germany would be able to stop by the firm and ask about their records, etc. I've heard that the firm still has it's original dies..... and if they did produce their own version of a PlM, whether those same dies are still in storage somewhere. Before the link disappears, here's what the medal looks like: and the letter from "Hammerle" that comes without a masthead on the stationary, etc. With "H.H." fasten the seat belts....and hold onto your money belt tighter... Les

Heiko, some people might not know what a German "AG" is. Here's an Internet definition for the forum: Aktiengesellschaft. Translates to "stock corporation." In Germany, all publicly traded companies are AG's, but not all AG's are publicly traded. AG's have two sets of boards -- the Vorstand, which usually consists of the CEO, CFO and other top management, and an Aufsichtsrat, which translates to "supervisory board," which has the function of overseeing management and representing the shareholders. German law prohibits individuals from being members of both boards. AG's in Germany require a minimum of DM 100,000 share capital and at least five shareholders at incorporation. Minimum par value for shares is DM 50. Les

The absence of "Hindenburg's" on the medal bars suggests pre-1934 manufacturer. A google search for "Godet-Werner" turned up this item: http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:Eu28VH...us&ct=clnk&cd=2 Part way down the page is a cased 1937 Cross of Merit of the German Red Cross (DRK), with "Jeweliere Godet-Werner Friedrichstr. 173 Berlin" in a 4-line inscription. The address is the location of J.H. Werner's shop in Berlin. I borrowed this quote from Andreas' web-site: "Goldsmith J.H. Werner run his company Berlin at Unter den Linden 1 separate from his shop in Friedrichstr. 173. His mainly supplied decorations of the 4th class of the Order of the Crown and the Red Eagle Order to the General Orders Commission." None of this provides proof positive anything about a possible Godet and Werner collection. During the inter-war years, Godet may have had financial problems because of limits on the size of Germany's armed forces, loss of the firm's Imperial "court" standing and Wilhelm's support and patronage in the aftermath of WWI, and competition from other firms. Interestingly, the 1938/40 Schickel catalogue has a drawing of a PlM with eagles that closely resemble a Godet type PlM. (The piece has been dubbed a "Schickel" on another forum....). Is it possible that Godet was somehow involved in the manufacturing of the Schickel? I don't know. If the Godet-Werner bars are real, what might have happened is something as simple as Werner buying Godet made medals, and mounting or casing them in his own shop at Friedrichstr. 173, and selling them under some form of an agreement with Godet. Maybe? Maybe not? "Gebrueder" Godet is something of a misnomer for the Godet firm during the 1930's and during WWII since there was only Eugen for most of the interawr years and during WWII, and no "Gebrueder" in business with him. Les

Would someone that only has a foist name like Guido, wit a heavy New Joi'see accent, calling the collector in the oily hours'da'moining making him an offah he can't refuse woik? Oh...and during the phone call, the theme song from "The Godfather" could be heard in the background. That might work..... or it's time to arragne for the delivery of a equine cephalus to the dear fellow's "chambre de nuit"..... java script:emoticon('', 'smid_21') Luigi...er...uh, Les

Dan, If the silver-gilt one turns out to be solid, not hollow, and without markings of any type, please ask the owner if he could look very carefully at the eagles to see if they were soldered onto the cross, and second, to look carefully with a jewelers loupe (at least 8X, 20X is even better) at the edges or sides of the arms of the cross for -any- traces of a seam line. If the piece is solid silver, with no maker marks, or lacking silver content stamps or if present that do not match the precise details of known maker stampings, and/or the eagles were soldered on, that's not going to be a good sign at all. Les

Hmm.... The EKI and Beobachter badges are pretty obvious. That thingie hiding under his armpit kinda looks like a Zepp badge, and the big round one looks to be an (unofficial) airships association medal. Either that or he's got a miniature surfboard tucked under his arm after trying to long-distance surf "La Manche" on his way to England. Rickie oughta be able to determine the id on this guy from 2000 meters at the dead of night, with one flick of his magic decorder ring. I don't see any "post Hindendburg" medals indicating WWII service (for instance no 1939 bars, no KvK, Flower-wars medals, etc). This guys age, plus the fact he's in uniform suggests he was a reserve officer during early WWII probably holding down a desk somewhere. Anything later than 1943 and a recall to duty that late he'd have had 'something" from the government d'jour in Berlin. The tunic pattern also suggests pre-war or early in the war. Nice photo there fella..... Les

Dan, One additional question.... There was no mention of maker marks, or in the case of the silver-gilt one, a silver-content stamp. Any markings present, or are they absent on the silver-gilt example? Les

Any chance of straight on, direct shot or shots with -no- angle of camera to medal? I'm with Marshall on wanting to see close ups of both sides of the eagle(s), -and- one other shot. Could I see a close up of the Pour? For the moment, I'm with-holding comment on the "Christiansen" piece until there's better photos and I can get a better fix on that piece. Dan, could you ask the owner if these pieces have been weighed? Les

Brian, The dies Wagner used for the solid silver gilt dies later in the war, appear to have been used during the 1920's to make a -few- PlMs. The die flaw(s) on the wartime pieces could only have turned up on the post-war pieces only if the same dies were used. The S&L 1957 copies do not appear to have been made from original dies. The "57" eagles have some significant differences compared to an original Wagner, and lack the die flaw(s) mentioned. There are also some subtle differences between the bodies of the crosses. IMO, the S&L copy is nothing but a post-WWII copy, and not made from dies Wagner made prior to 1918. What happened to Wagner's dies is a good question, but they were not used to make the eagles on the S&L copies. Les

Gordon, Thanks for the photo, that helps considerably. I don't think -that- particular medal is a wartime PlM at all. The 1957 S&L copies have several features that are easy to peg. The connected letters are sometimes seen on a few WWI era PlMs but only very -rarely- seen. The connected letters are a feature on the "57" types. There are at least three other readily identifiable characterisitcs that identify the 57 type. The tail feathers on wartime PlMs come close to forming a square, while the 57 type tail feathers are not as squared as originals. Then there is the "lumpiness" of the legs on the eagles, and poorlly detailed/defined feet that is especially noticeavle when compared to wartime pieces. The S&L copies fall short here. Also, the S&L copies have eagles heads and beaks that are noticeably different (wartime eagles usually have handchased open mouths, not the closed ones seen on S&L copies). I could go on, but in combination, those differences are enough to determine some of the main differences of 1957 S&L copies to original Wagner made pieces. Many of the early S&L copies were sold with oakleaves, and it's interesting that the "Hersing" example has a three-band ribbon for the oaks. Hersing was never awarded the oakleaves, so that ribbon in your photo was not one he was entitled to wear. Hersing died in 1960, so it's within the realm of possibility that he (or his family) acquired the 1957 S&L copy (with oaks remmoved and replaced by a jump ring, and the three banded ribbon kept) seen above. Hersing continued to serve his country in uniform after WWI, until he retired in 1935 (20 years after he received the PlM). Did Hersing have more than one PlM? I don't know. If he did, it's entirely possible that his family might not have known which was the actual presentation piece, or a medal he acquired later and opted to show the best looking example. (?) Gordon, S&L sold a small number of silver gilt examples and these are not common or easily found. Based on the three characteristics (and other details) I'd categorize your silver example as one of these. It's much nicer than some of the later production examples sold by S&L. A couple of posts after yours, Dan posted a later S&L copy which shows less attention to detail, etc. Regards, Les

Gordon, KaptLt. Otto Hersing of U-21 was awarded the PlM on -- 5 June 1915. That was early enough in the war, that his presented example should be hollow gold, possibly with a pie wedge suspension, although there are pre-October 1916 examples made with a baroque loop, and according to Previtera, sometimes in silver-gilt. I have a couple of S&L 57 PlMs and some detailed photos of wartime Wagners, and have made direct comparisons of a 57 version to a wartime Wagner. They are close, but not made from the same dies. The post-war S&L copies are very close, but there are some differences that suggest entirely new dies were made for the post-war copies. There are subtle differences on not only the cross, but the eagles are much crisper than the late war production Wagner eagles, and the worn post WWI dies that were used to produce the two between the wars Wagners shown earlier in this thread. By any chance do you happen to have a detailed photo of the one in the U-Bootarchiv? If it is not hollow gold, and resembles the post-war S&L types more than the pre-October 1916 hollow gold examples, it might not be his presentation piece..... Regards, Les

Marc, Many thanks for the headsup on the lighting/shadow box. You're right about lighting being the key, although having a reasonably decent camera (with knowing how to use it and undertanding what the various settings do) doesn't hurt. There's a well-known camera and photo store with outlets at most shopping malls in the US (and are on-line) that sells these for a tad more. I've been using natural light and if you're getting those kinds of results with one of the small studio lighting/shadow boxes, I'm going to get one. Thanks for the tip! If you're ever inclined, think about a thread showing how to set up the lighting and camera (settings) for one item, as a learning aide for those guys who haven't changed over from using flatbed scanners to cameras yet, and to show them how it's done? Les

Marc, Superb photos and items in the collection. You've got the techniques down. I -really- like that spiked helmet and the way it looks in the photo! Any hints on what camera you're using for these shots? Best regards, Les

That among other things. This is the guy who would have to arrange for baggage to be forwarded to the correct hotel on time (or receive it), smooth ruffled feathers if there were delays, missed connections, and all that can go wrong on a trip or vacation. If things went went smoothly the guy probably got rewarded by some of the lesser beings in an entourage, and if things went badly...he probably got to face the wrath of others directly. I don't know if this guy deserved the medals he's wearing, or what he was given. Any of his brothers in arms who worked with and ran the trains for the military however, had a very important role in the scheme of things, and if they wore military awards, chances are they did something far more important than shovel another load of gravel for ballast under a railway sleeper. In the German military, the guys who oversaw building and functioning of trains and making schedules work were often "invisible" in the greater social context, but for making things work and on time....these were the real movers and shakers. Starting with the Schileffen Plan and it's dependancy on the trains running on time and keeping a tightly timed schedule for mobilization, the Army used it's best and brightest "brains." The glory boys might ride horses, and fancy uniforms, but without the trains moving troops and hauling supplies, the drive into France (and Russia) would have been far different than things turned out. This guy and his brothers running the military trains were what made the Germans army able to do what it did in WWI. Les

One American method of stacking rifles or muskets was having four men (especially if the formation being used is two ranks deep) stack their muskets together. The two front rank men would interlock the ram rods, one of the rear rank men directly behind them would pass the muzzle of his weapon between the two men and his ram rod would be interlocked with the two that were already interlocked. The three rifles/muskts would be set down, and the fourth man's musket would be leaned on the tripod or stack. Four is a nice even number, and is more than co-incidental when you remember that in close order drill, counting off by fours has more than one reason, or purpose. Les

Brian, Look at the reverse side..............there's a die flaw t olook for. Tim's post-war piece(s) have the same flaw which could only have resulted if the eagles were made from the same dies. <snip> Tim's eagle has the same -exact- flaw as ....(wartime PlMs made by Wagner have).... The rest of the differences in the eagles makes them look very different, and I agree with you that the proportions of the heads, necks, etc are markedly different, although that could be the result of not only worn dies, but different craftsman who finished the pieces. Call that particular flaw a "DNA fingerprint" or whatever, but it's hard to explain how else it could be identical on a Wagner, Friedlander, and a post-war Wagner. This is my opinion... but this has me wondering if there really is any difference between Wagner and Friedlander, and if Friedlander somehow or other acquired Wagner made PlMs and either did the final finishing, or simply marked them and sold them as their own. (3 April, 2006: I've edited the about post considerably and removed the attached photo after making the necessary point. This is not about exposing a fake, but as Marshall suggests below, protecting an original, or originals. ) Les

I brought this old thread with the same PlM in it, back up to the top for a bit, so that some of the details of the eagles can be seen better. http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6116 Brian, I think the eagles were made from the same dies, and if you look closely at (.........specifc detail deleted in the interests of protecting an original, rather than exposing a fake..........) there are some specific details that can only be accounted for by having been made from the same dies. The heads, beaks, and breast feathers (or cross-hatching) are different enough that the medals do look considerably different and that's attributable to heavy wear on the dies. (The dies may have been bronze, or a soft steel not intended to mass production of -hundreds- of PlMs made not out of gold, but in silver. That would have a major impact on die wear.) Comparing the lettering/fonts doesn't help much because there seems to be a range of differences in the lettering, that give pause to think over with regards to 'why." Les