Les

Here's one from a later war, but what's in the buttonhole -is- from WWI, and it isn't an EK. Sorry the photo isn't larger, but most taken of him show only the ribbon which can be mistaken for something quite different than what it is. Les (added: 27 January) Another photo of Ramcke taken during the middle of WWII, showing his GMVK ribbon but not the cross. The GMVK "war ribbon" was worn a litte differently than the EKII ribbon when looped through a buttonhole.

Vince, check your PMs. Information and URL links sent. Les

..and this is what they look like after they've left the place they were made, and being sold as "something" or other, real or imagined. They weren't originally sold with a case, or ribbon. These are usually added later, and these are now turning up with the area around the eagle's feet and feathers cut out or voided, spurious maker marks added, and so on. This copy might look good at first glance, and at arms distance, but pick one up and compare it to a real one (especially side by side) and there's really no comparison. Brian, want to do the honors and post your grandfathers again? Les

This is a copy that was made in Spain about six or seven years ago. In the past two years, this version has been appearing on ebay, and has been bringing prices well over $1000, often around $2000 and sometimes more than that. A recent one on ebay went for $3800. Here's the obverse of one, fresh off the assembly line: Les

I saw this image being sold on ebay, and bootlegged it so it can be seen here. There were a few Africans in the continental Imperial Army prior to 1914-1918. "Sambo" (ok...it's not a politically correct name these days, but that was the name he was called), served in one of the Garde units (Curassier if I recall correctly), and I've heard of two others. Lettow-Vorbeck on his return to Germany after the war, had an African as part of his entourage/bodyguard. Anyone know anything about this fellow? Les

Hey everyone! The seller said he's relisting this one. Apparently the bidder backed out or did the seller use a shill who didn't drive the price up high enough? http://cgi.ebay.com/German-Pour-Le-Merite-...1QQcmdZViewItem Les

Gee whiz, the seller cancelled the sale saying it's not for sale anylonger. Too bad; watching ebay auctions is cheap entertainment that beats watching "Desperate Houswives" on television. Les

There were others on the Allied side that did what they could for the Germans (and everyone else) after the war was over. Gail S. Halvorsen of Provo, Utah, the "candy bomber" of Berlin flew cargo planes into Berlin before and during the Berlin airlift. Halvorsen on one of his flights to Tempelhof started up a conversation with some local children who asked for candy or buble-gum. He gave them some gum, and promised more on future trips. The kids asked how they would know when he was coming, and he said he'd wiggle the wings. He did, they came, and kept on coming again and again. Halvorsen became a symbol to Americans and Germans about many things, for sometimes different reasons. More than one or two Americans and Brits returned home after the war, or occupation duty with "war brides." Apparently, both victors and vanquished were able to get beyond the past. Les

Topic title says it all about this ebay offering.... http://cgi.ebay.com/WW1-Pour-Le-Merite-Blu...1QQcmdZViewItem In answer to Stogie's rhetorical question of when are "they" going to learn, the answer is probably never. For entertainment value, anyone want to guess what the closing price will be since this is a -no- reserve offering. Also, Stogie, can we weedle you into giving a small discount to the "winner" who gets the correct price within...perhaps $25? The last "PlM" that sold last week which is the same cross type as this one, but with the feet cut out and embellished letter, sold for $3300. This one has a fake aviation badge, and fake engraving on the EKI. This "group" will bring more. Watch the sharks circle this one... ;-) Les

Chris, I deleted the previous post and am correcting the information since I was looking at a different regiment when I posted that. The 146th was part of the 20th AK, and in the 101st Division, neither US, nor Airborne... ;-) . I'lll quote from the "Histories of the 251 Divisions of the German Army": 1918 "The Division is considered as consisting of a divisional staff only, administering Bulgarian units. The division is therefore, no longer counted as a German infantry division. ..." While the 101st was with the Bulgars in Macedonia, the 146th was transfered to the "Asienkorps" for other duties. Les

This it? With ribbon bars, the Godet pin closure looks considerably different, and medals bars if mounted the same way, shouldn't have either the double pins Vince mentioned, or even the style of pin this bar has on it. If it's not a "Godet type" pin/closure, ergo, not a Godet bar, and the label sewn on isn't original to the bar. Xxx (The guy with only -one- medal bar in his entire collection, and that bar has only one medal on it...a parade mounted "Hindenburg."

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Now that you mention it, back when the world was young and that movie was being made, there were stories that George Peppard wanted various items/props from the movie production. One story claimed he wanted (but whether he actually got it or not...don't know) one of the airplanes used in the movie, the PlM he wore (perhaps a S&L copy?) and so on. I suspect that even if the medal Peppard and those of the other actors wearing those blue thingies around their necks, were cheap copies, if they could be proven to have been worn in the movie, there would be a definite market among the movie (and militaria?) collector crowd. For example, in Saving Private Ryan, Tom Hanks had five helmets that he wore during the movie. The one used by him in the famous beach landing scene sold for...FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!!!!!... (I know who bought it, and where it is) six years ago (2000). Now, imagine what a cheap copy (or even not so cheap copy) of a "Blue Max" worn by Peppard would sell for to some of the "sindloesen" types that inhabit the world. So fella, you say you have how many copies of that "blue thing" to sell on ebay? java script:emoticon('', 'smid_18') java script:emoticon('', 'smid_25') java script:emoticon('', 'smid_27') Les

Heavens forbide they ask he check out their "weep holes" or "gas vents"......

Rick, It's worse than that. There are a small number of ebay trolls that can be predicted to keep on buying the same fakes or reproduction items over and over again. Some of them take a beating and keep on ticking worse than any Timex watch ever could. Check the list of bidders on this recent "PlM" auction, and you'll see several of the same bidders time and again, many of them having apparently won other "PlM" items in the past (for example, DrRalph and Pleskujawa among others). Some of these guys are obsessed with whatever it is they think they are doing. Les

There is an expression about standing at the corner of Hollywood and Vine in California: If you are able to wait long enough, sooner or later the entire world will pass by. That speaks to the eternal optimism in some people. Ebay is a buyer and sellers market where anything that can be legally sold and bought, can be auctioned. That doesn't mean everything will be sold there. If you apply the statistical concept of probability, and the way free markets work, that doesn't mean a genuine PlM will never be offered for sale there. Because we haven't seen one so far, doesn't mean there will never come a time that might happen. Considering what ebay has been doing to on-line auction houses, militaria dealers and collectors, the collecting market has changed and continues to change. The traditional way of buying and selling common ten or more years ago, has been heavily influenced by ebay...and ebay will continue to affect militaria dealer sales. Using the "rarity" argument to say that we shouldn't expect a PlM to be offered for auction on ebay, can be be applied to militaria dealers who also offer similar items on their sites (catalogues, or show tables). Because it's rare, shouldn't we then apply the same reasoning and logic to dealers who routinely offer rare medals and awards also? I can think of of more than one or two that routinely offer PlM's on their sites (one in a southern US state comes to mind immediately....), that are in the same category as the ebay offerings. Because a dealer offers bad items, doesn't mean that someday he might (accidentally) offer the real thing. Movie film props are often one of a kind thing. Look at ebay prices for some items used by particular actors, and the prices the items bring. The item if one of a kind, might be technically "rare" but that doesn't mean it's desirable, or worth a specific amount. Ignorance isn't limited to dealers or sellers. It's a common problem that doesn't know limits of age, gender, nationality, educational, or economic status. Buyers make mistakes, so do sellers. The real issue isn't whether a rare award has a snowballs chance in hell of being offered on ebay, but the matter of whether dealers and bidders/buyers alike are knowledgable enough to advertise and sell, or bid and buy on items. Do people know what they are doing? Often times, the answer seems obvious. Andreas, if a PlM itself is rare, then what about a PlM case being offered on ebay? Cases are rarer than the medal itself, and have a low survival rate. Obviously, I'm being tongue in cheek here, so please don't be offended...ok? Should I assume from what you've said that the chances of being offered a real Plm on ebay is very unlikely, that I should be even more sceptical if someone ever offered a PlM case (without medal) on ebay? If you read my comments above, I don't take that view at all. On ebay, if it's legal to buy and sell, sooner or later it may and proabably will appear there. Whether those who offer and bid on items know what they are offering and bidding on is the real issue. Regards, Les

Ok...my screwup. The third highest bidder that was lead the pack over the $3000 amount is Canadian. The other two that beat him out are Americans.... (I won't comment on how gullible some of the people living in the same country I'm in are....) java script:emoticon('', 'smid_19') Les

US $3,830.00 and it's going to a new Canadian owner who obviously doesn't read posts from this or a couple of other Forums.... Les

John, Hand-engraving, done with a chasing hamer and chisels is a -skill- that requires a lot of practice, and takes time to learn it well. What I've learned talking to engravers (and also from studying Japanese swords back when I was many moons younger) is that eventually specifically favored tools are used by the same engraver in preference to other similar tools. The combination of indiviual "motor skills" (nerves, hand-eye co-ordination, firmness of the strike or stroke) result in cuts or chisel marks that when seen under high-magnification can be used to "fingerprint" the way a person works. In short, engravers develop a style of their own, which in some case can be used to identify if the same person engraved everything, and all about the same time. The signatures might look different, but if the individual cut/chisel marks look like they were made by the same tool(s), the mark/cuts are the same length and depth, same angels, all seem to go in the same direction, and so on, that's a clue to whether or not something was made in one-go, or over time by several engravers. A photograph won't tell much, however a careful examination using a jewelers loupe, 3-D microscope lenses, etc. might provides some tell-tale clues to answer specific questions we might have about an item or items. Les

I hate to think where that thought can lead..... There is an old pre-WWII German publication that provides biographical sketches of PlM (and other) aviation reipients....but this one is very different from many of the other bios on the market. This particular one includes fascimile signtures of the individuals being written about...some who died during the war, and some who survived. The book is an expensive one, and a "gold mine" for anyone with fradulent intentions who wants to add signatures to Sanke/Liersch, etc, cards and enhance the value of a plain one, a "tad." A worst case, and infact possible nightmare scenario is someone who finds old silver, and has it embellished...."marries" it to other items, and proclaims they have a group, which...ahem....they so happen to be offering for sale for a friend, on consignment, or perhaps, "just in" from somewhere or other. We often assume that "intermediaries" may embellish stories of what happened, do things to groupings or to items they've acquired, but as you hint at, there is a definite possibility that a veteran who did quite a bit on his own, might resort to a little "gilding the lilly" and pretending to be more important than his life really was. Afterall, there are known veterans who lied about what they did (or didn't do) while in or out of uniform. Les

John, O'Connor mentioned Jacobs (?) writing his name in grease-pencil on his Ehrenbecher during the war, and intending to have his name engraved, but never did. The grease-pencil signature was still on it when he died, 50 some years later. Engraving can be done if the engraver has a keen eye, and a skilled "forger." Usually, what most engravers do is write or draw on the item, and then follow the line-work. Jacob's writing his name directyly on the goblet suggests this was what his jeweler/egraver either preferred or was capable of doing. It's also possible that doing it this way was common practice. The randomn order of signatures "all over the place" and tucked in where there was space for signatures hints that the names were written directly on the items, and the engraver simply chiselled out the names directly as they were written, rather than trying to copy them. (Copying can be done...although it may takes more skill and time.) The "no bodies" who signed their names in the 1920's and possibly early '30's to that case, may have added their names incremementally over time. They look neatly lined up, which kind of suggests that when somone saw the case, the list of names appeared orderly (like a petition document does when someone sticks one under your nose to have you sign it), and deliberate. Mess-mates presenting an item might have added their names during/after some party (with the imbibing of alchohol adding to the choatic and randomn way singatures were added) asked to sign their names might do so hastily. The formal order of the names on the piece now in your collection, suggests something along the lines of an autograph hunter adding names to his collection, and those who signed their names keeping a sense of decorum and order in the process. Needless to say, I'm speculating and blowing wind here....java script:emoticon('', 'smid_7') Btw, that's some grouping!!!! Almost every item even as stand-alone items, are important items historically, and in more than one or two instances, would form the core of some collections. Les

...oh yeah, here's the back. Did I mention it was a screwback, and marked "800" on the reverse? Les

I remembered this being in the collection. Looks a lot like some of the others on here....(yawn)....... Les

Chris, Post-war accounts (particularly the Bundesarchiv series) which started appearing after the war, often tried to point fingers and come up with reasons (often wrong, or politically motivated) why the Germans lost a particular battle, the war, etc. Under the Nazis and their ilk, finding others to blame became a passion, if not a way of life. Perhaps, the report fails to mention that Ludendorf anticipated the American attack at St. Mihiel and started pulling back the units in the sector as the attack developed. There were Austrian in the lines, but there were far more German units which did not seem to hold back the Allies either, and did their fare share (if not more) in falling back or giving up under Allied pressure. Austrian troops also served elsewhere in 1918: the k.u.k. 106th Division were in line on the Heights of the Meuse, and the k.u.k. 32nd Division was across the river from them in the Argonne. Both units fought against the Americans during the September/October 1918 Meuse-Argonne offensive, and did well holding back the Americans. One Austrian regimental commander did well enough that he was nominated for, and received the Pour le Merite (last name Poelpelka if memory serves me correctly) during October 1918. A total of five divisions were sent to France during the summer/fall of 1918: four served in the lines, and a fifth that was not deployed because it arrived too late to be deployed due to the armistice. Les

Chris, this is a guess.... think about artillery units and the how gas shells were used. The guy could have been a specialist or staffer attached to the unit (especially if it were a heavy mortar unit on a army level TOE) that did something related to gas shells. He might have inspected them, oversaw how troops used them, dealt with decontamination proceedures, etc. He might have also dealt with expiremental matters or field trials, that combined certain chemicals, shells, etc? Normally gas shells were small to mid caliber size, and not associated with the real big items like siege mortars. His checmistry background would have touched on mathetmatics and physics (to a degree), and in a pinch he could have been taught the rudiments of artillery and fire-control, calibration/ragning and related proceedures associated with artillery, but his specialties would likely have been noticed and used in something more related to his abilities...which is why I'm guessing a poison-gas/artillery connection. Les