Dave Danner

Not all German states. Among those that did: Baden Brunswick (Braunschweig) Hannover Hesse-Darmstadt Lippe-Detmold Schaumburg-Lippe Oldenburg Reuss, Younger Line Saxony Saxe-Weimar Saxe-Altenburg Saxe-Coburg-Gotha Saxe-Meiningen Schwarzburg-Sondershausen W?rttemberg None of these are particularly common, and some of these are extremely rare.

I must say I find it insulting to the soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines on the receiving end that those piss-poor quality recently cast Silver Stars are what they are given. Below, by comparison, is a 1940s-produced Silver Star. What is particularly galling is that the government has/had tons of these in storage, from various WW2 contracts, which they sold off to the collector market, while awarding the newer crappy ones. It's not like they were in danger of running out. Since Vietnam, the services have awarded less than 600 Silver Stars (I'm not sure of the exact number as I can't find Air Force statistics).

For World War I, Klietmann gives 53 Knights with Lions and Swords and 182 Knights with Swords, but these numbers apparently only cover W?rttembergers and non-W?rttembergers serving in W?rttemberg units. There were at least 8 Navy WK3Xs - if any of these weren't W?rttembergers that would push the number up somewhat. The list that I generated from a 2002 WAF thread, based on input from Rick L., Daniel and Werner Nickel, had 33 WK3XmL and 187 WK3X. There may be some inaccuracies and duplications there. Dr. Pfleiderer is not on the list, and almost every medical person listed there is an Oberstabsarzt. For combat arms officers, almost all WK3X recipients were majors, and WK3XmL recipients were lieutenant colonels. BTW, W?rttemberg is a -berg, not a -burg.

I have a candidate, by the way. Maybe Daniel can rule him on or out. Dr. Pfleiderer, a Stabsarzt in Landwehrbezirk E?lingen. In 1914, he was shown with the Silver Karl-Olga Medal, the LD2 and the Prussian Red Cross Medal 3rd Class. I only saw one other officer, Oblt. Kohlhammer of Landwehrbezirk I Stuttgart, with the Silver Karl-Olga Medal who didn't have higher awards. But he's field artillery, so all the medical-type awards wouldn't fit. Of course, the Silver Karl-Olga Medal continued to be awarded until 1916, and the LD2 could also have come later, so the 1914 rank list might give candidates, but not rule others out.

The real oddity, of course, which I'm sure Stogie-Rick noticed, is the Milit?r-Verdienstmedaille with the Geneva Cross. A W?rttemberger with a Schaumburg-Lippe decoration is one thing, but a W?rttemberger with a rather uncommon version of a rather rare Schaumburg-Lippe decoration, and without Schaumburg-Lippe's more typical wartime decoration, is a bit intriguing. There were over 10,000 awards of the Cross for Loyal Service (Kreuz f?r treue Dienste), Schaumburg-Lippe's Iron Cross equivalent. There were probably less than a 1,000 awards, if even that, of the Milit?r-Verdienstmedaille (no one knows exactly how many were awarded in World War One, but only 583 were awarded in the Franco-Prussian War, when the MVM was Schaumburg-Lippe's main military award). I can't imagine awards with the Geneva Cross were more than a minority.

I like the Order of the Z?hringen Lion a lot, but I'm not sure it would be tops for me among Baden decorations. I kinda like this one:

Which is rarer? The VKx or the EKxmKr?

The rank lists may be wrong. The Bronze Bravery Medal was an enlisted man's award. Unless he got it before August 1915, when he was still a Fahnenjunker. Alternatively, he and other Germans who received the Bravery Medal as officer candidates might have simply decided to "grade up" the award to befit their officer status. This picture shows him with two rows of ribbons, but is too fuzzy to make out a lot of detail:

Is there a reason why these must be the orders, and not the Civil Merit Medal and the Medal of the Friedrich Order? Nothing specifically says "officer" to me, but I may be misreading some of the awards.

"Isn't it morally wrong to give me a warning when, in fact, I was speeding?" "Don't you think it is about time you audited my return?"

Try this: http://search.ebay.de/_W0QQsassZhagekna41QQhtZ-1 It is the long bar toward the bottom, with the Saxon St. Henry Medal and the awards of a slew of other states.

http://cgi.ebay.de/Ordenspange_W0QQitemZ62...1QQcmdZViewItem It seems to be inserting an extra space after the "/" and before "Ordenspange". I can't delete it for some reason, The medal combination is impossible, but maybe the ribbon bar corresponds to something else and someone "fixed" it with the medals there?

Note the ciphers on the military awards are "B"s for Duke Bernhard, but on the women's award it is three interlocking "C"s. I have no idea why they interlock, but the C should be for Charlotte, Duchess of Saxe-Meiningen, Kaiser Wilhelm II's sister.

To further flesh things out for my first bar, and add a little mystery, here are the accompanying miniatures and an early ribbon bar: Note that the recipient is a Bavarian but he received Prussian and Saxe-Meiningen wartime awards before the one from his home state.

Him? http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php...&highlight=kinz

Apparently, Korea (MASH), Vietnam (Tour of Duty, after the 1st season) and various planets around the galaxy (Star Trek), look amazingly like southern California.

Technically, I guess, if I'm going to be a stickler for "proper" names, they are the Cross and Medal for Merits in War (unless in 1915 a masculine accusative took an "-e" like a dative). I think I need to fix my page.

The proper names are the Cross for Merit in War (Kreuz f?r Verdienste im Kriege), which is the officer's version, and the Medal for Merit in War (Medaille f?r Verdienste im Kriege), which is the enlisted version, both established on March 7, 1915. There were 4,653 of the Cross and 24,038 awards of the Medal during the war. As Rick mentioned, the Ducal Saxe-Ernestine House Order would be the other award the duke could confer. A lieutenant might get the Knight 2nd Class with swords as his next award after the Cross for Merit in War. The Cross for Merit in War on a medal bar: The Medal for Merit in War on a medal bar: Some more information on my Saxe-Meiningen awards page here: http://home.att.net/~ordersandmedals/saxemeiningen.htm

So can we rule out Paetzold? It would be cool to get it on the semi-random first guess. He was a Major a.D. in the Ehren-Rangliste, so he wouldn't be in the 1924 Reichsheer list.

1. Prussia; Iron Cross, 2nd Class 2. Prussia: Royal House Order of Hohenzollern, Knight with Swords 3. Baden: Order of the Z?hringen Lion, Knight 2nd (?) Class with Oakleaves and Swords 4. Reuss: Princely Reuss Honor Cross, 2nd Class with Swords 5. Germany: Honor Cross for Combatants 6. Prussia: 25-year Long Service Cross 7. Prussia: Life Saving Medal 8. Prussia: Centenary Medal 9. Austria-Hungary: Military Merit Cross 3rd Class with War Decoration The Reuss Honor Cross, 2nd Class indicates a major, likely on staff (majors with higher commands might get the Officer's Cross). The lack of many prewar medals seems to make a unique match hard, but there are likely candidates among pre-war captains with only a Life Saving Medal who made major during the war, such as Maj. Paetzold, late of IR.114 (a Baden regiment, by the way).

Persons eligible for the Erinnerungskreuz 1912/13 were military personnel of the Army, Navy, Landwehr, Gendarmerie, Finance Guard (Finanzwache), Border Police (k.u.k. Grenzpolizei) and state Forest Service, voluntary medical personnel and certain military attaches and officers who had participated in the Balkan Wars in an official capacity, as long as these classes of personnel had spent at least 4 weeks on active duty with mobilized units during the state of emergency. So an Austrian civilian doctor working with the Bulgarian Army or a called-up Austro-Hungarian unit could have qualified. The lack of an Austrian War Commemorative Medal is odd. Obviously, by the backing, the ribbon bar was made after this award was instituted. The award criteria for the War Commemorative Medal covered civilians, including medical personnel, who had participated in the war effort. So even if the recipient were civilian, given the Red Cross Decoration he should have been eligible. The Red Cross Decoration was instituted in 1914, and the war decoration was only authorized for persons actively serving the Red Cross, and not for persons who just gave contributions.

Cristophe, re post #10: "Order of military merit 4th class 2nd grade with X": There is no 4th class, 2nd grade of this order. This is the 5th Class of the National Order of Military Merit (Народен орден ?За военна заслуга?, V степен). I Class: Grand Cross, sash badge and breast star II Class: Grand Officer's Cross, neck badge and and breast star III Class: Commander's Cross, neck badge IV Class: Officer's Cross, breast badge with rosette V Class: Knight's Cross, breast badge VI Class: Silver Cross, no enamel The 5th and 6th Classes were also awarded without the crown, which one might call a 2nd grade, but they were not denoted as such in Bulgaria. Also, all versions of this order came with swords. The only Bulgarian order that came with and without swords was the Order of St. Alexander (although there are some rare variants of the Military Order "For Bravery" without swords. It was the Military Order "For Bravery" whose 3rd and 4th Classes during World War One were divided into a 1st and 2nd grade, with the 1st grade being a pinback cross and the 2nd grade suspended from a ribbon (white enamel for the 3rd Class, red for the 4th Class). There is a fair amount of confusion on the net about Bulgarian awards, and Bulgarian dealers are often the source of misinformation. I added to it for a while by having my examples misidentified. But the confusion has deeper roots, especially with awards to non-Bulgarians. For example, the Soldier's Cross for Bravery, the enlisted version of the Military Order "For Bravery", came in four classes. The 1st and 2nd were gilt and the 3rd and 4th were silver. The only difference between the 1st and 2nd, and between the 3rd and 4th, was the bow on the ribbon. But most examples awarded to foreigners, especially Germans, were not mounted with bows. Similarly, the rosette is the only difference between the 4th and 5th Classes of the National Order of Military Merit, but German officer's bars are often missing rosettes. Below is an example of a III Class (Commander's Cross) of the National Order of Military Merit, on the ribbon of the Military Order "For Bravery", awarded to a German officer. However, the Bulgarian regulations say that only the IV, V and VI classes of the National Order of Military Merit could be awarded on the ribbon of the Military Order "For Bravery", and then in the case of the IV and V classes, the ring around the medallion would be in white enamel rather than green.

Thanks, Christophe. And thanks again to Rick for his tireless labor. Here is the list as it currently stands: http://home.att.net/~ordersandmedals/MMJO.htm I have added in most dates, though there are gaps. I put in links to sites with biographical information where known. I also started adding in the Commander's Crosses, though there are gaps. Dave

So no one has an answer to my trivia question? Here is the current status of the on-line list of recipients. Like the MKFVO list, I am still filling in information, including links to sites with biographical information where available. Recipients of the Militär-Max-Joseph-Orden I will also add a glossary to explain the various abbreviations for ranks and units, as well as clean them up (to make clear, for example, that Bavarian regiments are the ones identified, not similarly numbered Prussian ones).

By the way, that guy Franz Jaff? has a much more interesting combination of awards than the others there: Prussia, Iron Cross 2nd ClassPrussia, Red Eagle 4th ClassPrussia, Crown Order 4th ClassLandwehr DA 1st ClassLippe, War Merit CrossLippe, Leopold Order 2nd Class Lippe, House Order of the Honor Cross 2nd Class with SwordsSaxe-Coburg-Gotha, Ducal Saxe-Ernestine House Order, Grand CrossFrance, Palmes AcademiquesRomania, Order of the Romanian Crown, Commander's CrossMontenegro, Order of Danilo, Commander's CrossSaxe-Coburg-Gotha, Gold Medal of Merit in Arts and Sciences with CrownToo bad he didn't make it into too many more "Who's Who"s - he died in on July 13, 1937. By the way, he appears to have a Bacon number of at most 4: Jaff? was the set designer for Plague in Florence (1919), which was written by Fritz Lang.Fritz Lang directed American Guerrilla in the Philippines (1950), which co-starred Robert Patten.Robert Patten was in Zigzag (1970) with Eli Wallach.Eli Wallach was in Mystic River (2003) with Kevin Bacon.