Mike

I have the same model Erich although , mine was ?neutered? ?NY get?s upset if it?s healthy. I?ve never seen one of the Finnish Tubes with a Blast Shield so , I think your shield was added after it left Finland. I?m still looking for an original shield for mine ..maybe someday

I thought I'd add this ... I?m starting to wonder ---Could this be a pre-production or transitional piece ? I?d have thought the Core would have clued us in on the manufacturer but ..still no match. I even wondered if a Jeweler might have tried to repair it at some point because of the damaged Beading As far as the ?20? is concerned ?I spoke with an Engraver and was told that Roto-Engraving (like this) was common from the 40?s through the early 70?s when it was replaced by Laser Engraving . Remember , Roto-Engraving was also a style used on Gold Party Badges so ..it?s not a modern technique . The Laser leaves a clean cut devoid of any ?swirl marks? at the bottom of the cut. It is however still commonly used by Industrial Engravers who are not concerned about the ?swirl marks? . He also told me some Engravers still use this technique to remove large area , patterns or letters and then hand etch a grid pattern or fill the engraved area with Paint to hide the swirl-pattern . He felt it was not something the average person would do at home with a Dremel Tool . If this was a mass produced reproduction ..would the faker take the time to engrave oversize numbers on them that don?t come anywhere near an original Zimmermann 20 ? If the faker did ..he?d have done it on more than one repro badge and I?m sure one of us would have seen another with similar engraving. I bet it was done by some Collector or , maybe even as an inventory tracking number ..or possibly by someone back in the 60?s who WAS trying to infer the Cross was a Zimmermann?.back then our Hobby was still young and it would have been more acceptable . But as I?ve said before ,the number alone is not enough reason to call this a fake ..unless someone out there comes up with other Badges with the same engraving. This is a puzzle and ..It seems this Cross has can?t easily be written off or explained. Any thoughts guys ?

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I used a magnifying glass to get the close up ..that's why the lint shows Also , the lighting gives it a copper or brass look that doesn't show under normal light

left side

date

close up of Swastika

weight --

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I'd like to thank Don for posting it here and trying to help me ID it . I've checked all my reference books and searched through the Forums and just can't match it with any known Fake or Real EK's. I am not paying any attention to the engraved 20 since we all know it's not a Zimmermann . Some must have engraved that after the War for whatever reason .. The hardware does not match any Schinkle I've ever seen ..here are a few measurements --

I'll add what we know so far -- --It's a Shinkle Form --It's multi piece construction --It's Magnetic --Slight Rust showing on Core --High ramp sided Swastika --and the Beading has damage and wear --It looks to be Silver..no sign of being plated ******************************* --Pin doesn't match any known fake or real examples (Ben found one that's close and has a Pin that extends over the Hinge) http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...d=1#post2375354 --No sign of hinge or "C" catch being re-soldered --It has been repainted (not well either)

Dietrich?s Book arrived today ? As we reach for History through our ?Hobby? , I think our reference books have grown along with us. Many of our books have set ?milestones? for us and will continue to serve us (and the Hobby) for generations to come. They?ve taught us more about the items that we posses, shown us artifacts that we never knew existed , ?and some things we can only hope to ever see or hold. Unfortunately , the reproductions have also kept up with us and in some cases even out paced our reference books. As far as the RK is concerned , I think that ?race? is over now. For the first time , we have a Book that goes far beyond only showing the various makers of the Award. This is not a picture book ..it's a Manual. Written with the ?eye? and approach of an Engineer ..as a ?tool? for the Collector & Historian. I honestly feel that Dietrich?s book on the Knights Cross has brought us and our ?Hobby? to a whole new level ?this book has set a new standard and I?m sure it will define how all of our future reference books will be written. <A superbly crafted reference> Congratulations Dietrich

Unbelievable find Paul ?and I really appreciate this one because of its connection to the 16th Pz. If you ever run into any original Pictures of general Angern (who commanded the 16th) during your research , please let me know. I own his Uniform and would love to put a ?face? with his Tunic.

Hi Bill ...I think you missed out here. If it was me , I would have crammed everything back in the Trunk and cut a deal for the whole Car and its contents Nothing better than opening a Trunk and finding treasures (unless it's Jimmy Hoffa of course) By your pics it looks like this guy could have done his Souvenir Shopping during the War at some German Depot ...The Tunic looks unissued and the Ammo pouches and Canteen also look crisp and unissued. Only the Gasmask looks like it was used. Can you see where any insignia was ever sewn on besides the Litzen and Adler ?

you can clearly see that fake brushed finish --

Hi Chris (long time no see) I already mentioned that . But ya know ...when someone sees or understands just how far you'd go (way beyond mutilation) to get a hate message across ..that also sends a message in itself much like that Ace of Spades "calling Card" used in Vietnam

Full inscription (this differs from example in your Book Gordon)

back --

Here?s an example that I bought from a Gent in Germany a few years ago. I?ve heard ?rumblings? about these for years and since it was cheap , I bought it as a ?curiosity? item . My example also has a slightly lower ?R? like the one Gordon just posted and to tell you the truth , I know mine's a fake?it?s got to be. The construction is too good (multi-piece, nice finish ,tight hinge etc). And that fake silver finish with the Black washed age shadows always raises a flag before I look at any other details But something tells me that at some point the Russians did make these. The Soviet Propaganda machine was in overdrive ..and we shouldn?t dismiss something as ridiculous simply because we are judging it by today?s standards. Consider some of the wacked out Propaganda Items we (the Allies) , and the Germans produced -- ? Postage Stamps with Hitler?s Head being a Skull ? <a href="http://www.psywarrior.com/Cornflakes2.html" target="_blank">http://www.psywarrior.com/Cornflakes2.html</a> Pornographic radio programs? <a href="http://www.psywar.org/cripps.php" target="_blank">http://www.psywar.org/cripps.php</a> Fake Cigarette Papers ? QUOTE --?One disguise which appealed to me-as a non-smoker- was a wafer-paper version which was packed inside a well-known German make of cigarette papers for smokers who `rolled their own'. In the P.T. handbook, as in the Hymn book and the time-tables, the first few pages were identical copies of the German original. In the cigarette packets too, the first papers were genuine cigarette papers. It was only when you got further inside all of these `covers' that our `health instructions' made their appearance.? <a href="http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:4UVb_...;cd=3&gl=us" target="_blank">http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:4UVb_...;cd=3&gl=us</a> Propaganda Medals or Coins/Plaques were common during WW1 and I?m sure the ?lesson? was remembered during WW2. Here are a few examples including the well known Lusitania ?Medal? ? <a href="http://ansmagazine.com/spring06/cavall.html" target="_blank">http://ansmagazine.com/spring06/cavall.html</a> Goebbels even went as far as creating his own Nazi-sponsored German propaganda swing band (Charlie and his Orchestra) British listeners heard the band?s ?re-written? versions of popular songs every Wednesday and Saturday at around 9 pm. Here?s a site where you can hear them --- <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_and_his_Orchestra" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_and_his_Orchestra</a> By our standards today ..much of this sounds laughable and it?s hard to believe that any Country would seriously endorse any of these programs ..but , it was a different world 60 years ago and ..I can see them doing it. Without a doubt , many Factories in Leningrad were working right through the Siege ..PPS43?s were being produced as well as M36 Helmets being refurbished etc. I honestly don?t think stamping out 500+ simple one piece EK?s wouldn?t be a big deal for a Factory mass-producing stamped Machine Gun Parts. Given the ?quality? of WW2 Soviet factory production in Leningrad (using the PPS43 as an example) ..I?m sure it would have been a one piece , cheaply made crude Cross meant for a one-time use. I'm also not so sure about 2 classes being made ..one Class would do the job. They wouldn't be trying to fool anyone ..they wanted to get a message across The question is ..what they were made for. Could they have been ?pinned? to German Soldiers killed by Partisans behind the lines as a Terror ?tool? ? (like a calling card) One Collector thought they could have been a fund raising ?token? given out the way that ?TO HELMET DER KAISER? Cross was in WW1 (I doubt it) The only explanation that?s plausible to me would be the Terror Tool idea ..selectively placed on murdered Soldiers behind the Lines ..the only problem is , we have never seen or read anything about that ever being done. Maybe the program never got off the ground...hopefully someday something will turn up in the archives . BTW guys ..these are just my feelings , I'm sure everyone will have their own opinion on them. I'm just trying to keep an open mind

Thanks Paul ..and nice seeing you here ! I know most collectors avoid the paperwork unless they come with the awards ..but the paperwork tells so much more than just an unknown Medal sitting in a Ryker. Someone told me I should list his SpanAm Medal # on the Omsa site in case one of the members has it....it would be nice to add to the group. Another Collector sent me a list of his Battles ..here's what he figured out -- Battles- San Jacinto Nov. 11, 99 , Tirad Pass Dec. 2 , 99 Engagements - Magellan bridge Nov. 10 1899 with Igorrot tribe near Banaue - Jan 13, 1904 Expeditions - Gen'l Wheat... to Lingayen Gulf Nov. 5 to 21, 1899 Operations - Gen'l Young's Brigade NW Luzon Nov. 27 , 99 to Jan. 9, 1900 Lefanto - ( not sure) and Bontoc Nov. 30, 99 to Jan 3, ....

You know what I like is , he's actually from 2 well known units ..I know the 33d is not as famous as Teddy's Rough Riders but, they have quite a History themselves. I wonder how many 1st Cav Vets soined the 33d

Born in Henderson Kentucky And check out the way they list his Birthday ..based on his enlistment date 1899 Somehow he ended up in Indian Territory ...interesting fellow

Hi Andrew ...I tried getting a close up of his record but , it's not easy

His name shows up as a member of Troop M on this site -- http://www.spanamwar.com/index.htm There must be more available on him out there someplace. Maybe Andwwils is right and he never applied for the Awards ..or something was overlooked ?

You're right ..it says Indian Terr on the outside of that brown folder. I'm thrilled with the group ...maybe , just maybe someday I could find his numbered SPAN AM War Medal to put back with it