Tim Tezer

It's too bad there isn't SOME sort of reference book on German court jeweler marks. The old standard in English is "Court Jewelers of the World" by Jeffrey Jacob, and it is in desperate need of an update. I would be happy, however, just to see someone cover German jewelers alone. Tim

I guess it wouldn't hurt to add a close up of the mark:

Second pic: Reverse

That mysterious square maker's mark appears once again - this time on a pilot's badge. I know it's been asked before, but I can't recall if anyone ever came up with an answer: do we know who the maker is that used this mark? First pic: Obverse

I've seen this type before. The little projection on the top of the frame is the way they were made, but it looks as though the ring has been re-soldered. Too bad about the rust damage. One of these sold at auction in January this year for $325 plus premium, but it was in excellent condition. It's a lot harder to guess what people would be willing to pay for one in this condition, but I would think $175-$200 US. Depends on the buyer - some people don't mind condition issues, and some people only accept top condition. Tim

An excellent point!

I have not only been careful about the copies, I have been so careful that I have never ventured to actually purchase a type 1. I would assume that fakers would change the obverse center medallion on a much more common type 2, but other than detecting that this change has been made, is there any other way to identify a fake? Tim

You didn't specify which period you are interested, but if you are interested in the fascist RSI period, there are two volumes by Fausto Sparacine, "Catalogo dei distintivi e medaglie della Repubblica Sociale Italiana 1943-45", both in softcover, nicely illustrated, and available for about 30 euros each in Italy. Naturally, the text is in Italian. Tim

My first question would be whether the Bavarian MVO 3rd class is real. If that's an awarded original, I would be hard-pressed to imagine anyone putting together a fake bar with one, as they are extremely hard to come by. Been looking to get one myself.... Tim

Just out of curiosity, about how many years ago did you acquire it? Tim

This example is made by AWS, which I believe is Alfred Werner & Sohne. Their mark, when it appears, is the letters AWS in a wappen (coat of arms) cartouche. They are best known for making the "pillowback" 1914 EK1s. I would think this is a fairly early example because of the complex 9-rivet construction. A marked AWS that I've seen had simpler construction, but the obverse details were identical. Tim

Yes, please! If I can't have this beauty for my collection, I would at least like to console myself with some nice photos. Tim

Well, it had to happen sooner or later (if it hasn't happened already). I would agree that this piece is highly suspect, and I would stay away. Those Imperial Russian badges from the same seller look as they they might have come out of the same workshop. Tim

Exactly - for a water rescue the Al Valore di Marina would have been awarded regardless of his service. I believe that there are published rolls for all Italian Navy recipients, but I don't know if they include foreigners. The medal, the engraving and the case all indicate that this is his awarded original. Tim

If you ask five different collectors that question, you'll get five different answers. Since there are so many of them around, it's reasonable to assume that some of them are fakes. But there is no concensus on which ones are correct and which ones are fake. This is one case where the fakers have actually succeeded in clouding the matter so completely that an absolute certainty may be impossible to arrive at. My personal take on it is that there is one type I see more commonly than any other type, and I would avoid it. Tim

Marshall is right. The supposed "Von Schleich" PLM above is apparently a post-1957 S&L example, and definitely not an awarded piece. The second one posted by jonightflyer is not a Wagner/Friedlander, or a Godet. So I would call it a copy, but it seems very nicely made and may be pre-1945. I don't recognize it as any of the known mass-produced knock-offs. As for Der Rittmeister's "most prized piece" I can only say that I hope he didn't mortgage the house for it. Tim

Here is a shot of the silver-gilt PLM with connected letters that Les refers to: The detail on this example is pretty stunning. Somewhere I think I have a photo of a similar piece sold by Detlev Niemann, but I have allowed my photo collection to slip into a poor state of organization, and I can't figure out which disk it's on. I'll see if I can locate it. Tim

Too bad it's not that simple. The gold badge awarded to Oblt. Berthold in WW1, which is pictured in both David Edkins' "The Prussian Orden Pour le Merite" (on the cover), and Neal O'Connor's Vol. II of "Aviation Awards of Imperial Germany" (on the inside front cover) has the U and R connected. It is, as far as we know, Berthold's awarded badge, and evidently the one he was wearing at the time of his death. The S&L copies made in the 1950s and 60s also had this feature, but the eagles were extremely crude and can be easily distinguished from the originals. Tim

I'm going to take a wild stab at it, and put my money on the Napoleonic era. 1) Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld, medal for volunteers of the 5th German Army Corps. (the off-white stripes should be yellow, but maybe they faded?) 2) Saxon Duchies war commemorative for 1814/15 3) Russia, Order (or cross) of St. George 4) Hanover, Guelphic medal for war merit 1815 5) Prussia, golden military merit medal 1797-1815 (or silver if it dates before 1806) 6) I'm kind of at a loss for this one - maybe a Schaumburg Lippe Civil Merit Medal, after 1830. Otherwise another non-German award I haven't figured out, but not a Russian St. Anne, as that would have been placed next to the St. George ribbon. Tim

As you've probably guessed, one of the reasons I'm asking about the bar is because I thought I might have an ID on it, but I have a lot of doubts. The person I have in mind is qualified for all of the Prussian, Bavarian & 3rd Reich awards on this bar, but I don't think the Austrian/Hungarian awards apply, as to my knowledge he was never on the Austrian front. He served in France on the Western front the entire war. Could he have received the Austrian awards without serving on that front? Tim

Boy, you guys are fast! I just had time to throw the pizza in the oven, and already you've responded. I felt a little awkward about posting HH's picture, but I guess that shouldn't bother them. Anyway, there it is. Anyone seen it? Tim

I am trying to find out what happened to a medal bar sold at Hermann Historica in October 2005. Here is the link to the item: Herman Historica sale 49, lot 306 Does anyone know who bought this, or where it ended up? Tim

Ed, Strictly speaking, it is entirely possible that a real, awarded PLM could turn up on Ebay. I have yet to see one that could be verified, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen. Much as I dislike Ebay, and particularly the buffoons who manage it, I use it as a selling venue all the time, and it helps to support my collecting. A lot of other collectors and dealers do the same, and they're not selling sewage. If I had an awarded wartime PLM, I probably wouldn't sell it anyway, but certainly not on Ebay. I did offer a post-1918 example last year on Ebay - accurately described as such - and it failed to sell because it was tainted by all the other sewage on Ebay. What I failed to realize is that I had to compete with people who take one of the Spanish copies like the one referenced in this thread and put fake marks on it, then offer it as "absolutely original." The only PLM I have ever seen on Ebay that MIGHT have been good was back in 2003. It had a tiny blurry picture, but looked right in the photo. I called the seller and spoke to him at length, and he identified the marks "W 938" on it, even though they were not described in his auction listing. I asked him if he could get me detailed close-up photos, and he said he would try, but he was an elderly gent and had to get help from somebody else. That was the last I heard from him. The item was pulled off of Ebay the next day with the explanation "This item is no longer available." So I'll never know if it was real or not, but somebody out there apparently thought it was. Tim

Unfortunately for the buyer, these miniatures are fake. The simple fact that they are turning up so frequently on Ebay should be a good indicator of that. The style of Godet buttons that appear on them varies, as the fakers appear to be using original buttons that could have come from any type of buttonhole ribbon or miniature. The fact that it says "Godet" on the button does not make the miniature original to the period. Tim

It appears to be a real one, but not older than the 1970's. Tim