Tim B

Hello all, As I was jumping around the various forums tonight, I wanted to point out that this thread only had seven inputs on one page back in April 2007 prior to being resurrected in 2009. In this last year (roughly), and about three years after it initially started, we are at 25 pages, with over 14,250 views and 495 replies!! Though I might be somewhat biased here, I think this is probably the most detailed and complete online reference that discusses the various WW1 Interallied Victory Medals to date, and am happy to be a part in sharing information and photographs of such beautiful pieces of history. It's been a great thread for me and I have learned a lot from other members here. Congrats to everyone participating. Tim

Paul, Besides rising prices in general, I'm starting to notice a slow down of the Japanese awards being offered on eBay as well. Used to be you would see pages of cased awards in near mint condition every week and now, it's older, lower conditioned items with the higher-grade mint pieces commanding higher prices when they do appear. Perhaps we are beginning to see the end to great deals? Tim

Hi Rob, You may be correct on the never-ending varieties of Belgian Fire Cross; just when I think I seen all the variations, up popped the type 2 with the sides like yours and not too long ago, we were introduced to that short-barreled type 1. Overall though, I think the major varieties have been posted in that thread, as they seem to be the most often encountered. IMO, those versions probably make up 90-95% (or more) of the examples I have seen out there, be it single or mounted in groups. So, my friend it appears you have one of the more rarer types IMO! You have an amazing collection Rob, would love to see all of it one day! Tim

Hi guys, Well, I always have reservations asking questions about items that are currently for sale or on an active auction, as it only seems to point out items that available to others. And of course, after +7 days with no bids or apparent interest, immediately bidders come in after the thread verifies the clasps are good. I guess I can't complain, as everything is always up for grabs until someone wins or pays for an item, I just hate spending so much time trying to research items and asking questions, only to lose out and then wondering if someone just comes in for a free ride to get a nice, scarcer, piece with little to no effort on their own. Of course, they could have been watching it all along, or might not even be a member or visitor here and it was just one of those things. I guess it's old feelings from my earlier days on WAF where I would see guys continually get undercut by other members that would post items for verification only to lose it. I had a so-called "collector" actually go to a German dealer once and take a mint cased GWL pilot badge from under me and I already had it reserved. I told him about the situation where he then played stupid and still bought it. Turned it around for double the purchase price in four months and told me he had to do it for a trade. Needless to say, I had no use for him or the dealer since. He eventually burned enough bridges with other members and his side "business" dried up. Unfortunately, he had a protege take up for him that did the same thing. Buy up items, post them to show off and ask questions on, then marked them up double for resale. I just don't get these guys and wish they would go away. They are not collectors in my eyes, only opportunists. Enough of the rant, sorry. Oh well, at least I learned something new here on clasps and my interests go in several directions so things like this don't hinder my collecting efforts anymore. Thanks again for the answers you two! Tim

Hi guys, This piece is actually an Italian/Turkish War Medal and not the one with Libya on the reverse. That was part of my concern, as the Italian/Turkish medal was 1911-1912. Hostilities would have been over, so I could only speculate the guy remained in theatre throughout the Balkan conflicts and throughout WW1. I just could not find any information online showing this style bar or the fact that these bars with dates going out to 1918 were authorized for either the I/T or Libya campaign medals. I did see another example (Libyan Campaign) but, you can see it has the single date (1913) on it. Thanks again! Tim

Hi Rob, Beautiful additions to the thread! You know, I never did find another Belgian Fire Cross like the one you have but, I did see a Type 2 that had several horizontal lines along the edge. Most have between 16-21 and the versions with more than that must be from one obscure maker. Tim

Hey Rob, That's good to know and food for thought, as I have always taken a harder look at ones that had the DS clasp located anywhere but on the bottom. I have seen cases where the seller, or recent buyer, has claimed this is the way the vet had it, but again, there are also cases where clearly the ring has been opened and to a lessor degree, the top removed, though I never understood why someone would remove the pin when the ring was easier to move. Anyway, another interesting aspect to collecting these! Tim

My question pertains mostly to the WW1 campaign medals. I have seen different types of date clasps associated with the Italian WW1 Victory and Commemorative Medals and also some examples of the clasps for the Albanian Campaign. All the clasps I have seen have a single date on them (eg: 1915; 1916; 1917; 1918). Were there ever any official, double or inclusive dated clasps like the one pictured below? IF so, what medals were authorized to carry them? Here's one on a 1912 Italian/Turkish War Medal ribbon but, the only way I could envision such a combination is that the man was serving in that theatre prior to and including WW1? But why were the clasps put on this ribbon? Could it indicate possible colonial service of some sorts? Tim

Another fairly common combination, which has the typical Hungarian and Bulgarian Commemoratives and a 40 yr NSDAP Medal, in addition to the three posted above. Tim

Though there is a separate Imperial section here, I thought I would try to jump start the thread again with a couple more WW1 medal bars. Tim A common three-place bar with a long-service award.

Hi Rob, That would probably be my guess then, that initially, all bars were made with this hub on the ends until regulation placed the DS clasp on the bottom. Tim

Yes, thank you! Good detailed information on authenitic items is good, but to also have some ideas what to watch out for is always a big plus! Tim

Hi guys, I've only seen a couple examples that have the Defensive Bar with the hubs and often wondered if they were made that way prior to any regulation that put the Defensive Sector bar last (on the bottom) on the ribbon. I will add, that anytime I see the bars out or normal sequencing, I usually find the suspension ring has been opened and attribute that to the bars being moved, added, or replaced. Could it be possible that at one point in time the Defensive Sector bar was on top? Thoughts? Tim

Hi Mike, I would start with eBay and search Italian medals, I think I seen a couple sellers offering them. If not, here's on e site that comes to mind: http://www.worldmedals.co.uk/Rib/forribb.htm Tim

Hi Paul, Yes, I was going to mention the fact that other countries have lost many of their documented groups to "foreign" collectors worldwide as well. I wonder, now that many of those countries have better economic conditions and more people are interested in their historical past, that we may see prices increase and items harder and harder to acquire. Like you said, the former Soviet Union now prohibits many of it's awards from being removed from the country. I could forsee other countries adopting that view, at least on the more substantial orders and decorations. Tim

Hi guys, All of you are making good, valid arguments but, I think Megan hit closer to point; the law could have been written better and more specific to the problem that addresses those that commit fraud, either with the wearing of military awards not earned, or the monetary benefits that come with certain awards. VA fraud is rampant, always has been and IMO, it will never get fully under control. Same goes for large programs like Social Security, Welfare, Food Stamps, etc. When a person can get away with an additional 10% on his pension (claiming the Silver Star) or get all his kids into a military academy for free (MOH), then there is problem. As a retired veteran, I even take offense with the guy that would be sitting in a parade wearing items that he was not entitled to and I have seen guys wearing items in uniform (commissioned officers no less) just to pick up chicks, but you're never going to stop those individuals from doing stupid sh1t like this. Certainly does no good to make laws to punish everyone, when you can't or won't hold those offenders accountable for their individual actions. Paul is correct, the MOH was never supposed to be an item that could be purchased or traded. Only authorized manufacturers could produce these and a person could only get them through authorized channels once the documentation was checked for proper entitlement. Years ago, it was technically illegal to buy US decorations. You had to trade them in either US silver coins or commemorative stamps. This was how guys like Sydney Vernon had to conduct business so, from a collecting point of view, it had gotten better over the years. This law was poorly written (typical these days) and only added unnecessary confusion to the collecting community and sellers that wanted to trade in these items, not illegally wear them or claim any type of compensation related to supposedly earning them. The problem I see now is that you can legally buy/sell these items, including the MOH, on overseas dealer sites and foreign collectors can keep these in their private collections with no issues, but not in the US. That, to me, is a double-standard. Anyway, I think we all stand on the same merits here and none of us would have much use for an individual wearing a military award they did not earn. Cheers! Tim

Hello André, No worries and welcome to the discussion here! That was a very nice site link and it certainly applies here. It also has a wealth of information for collectors in other areas as well. Merci! Tim

Hello André, No, the markings Rob is referring to are the maker's marks on the reverse of the medal. The cornocopia for the Paris mint (Monnaie de Paris) and the letters "BR" for bronze metal content. He thought he had another example to show off of the Bertrand manufacture. Regards, Tim

I couldn't agree more! Tim

Hi, IMO, the ones with the tongue look authentic but I would question items 8-11 for starters. They look quite modern from the pin setup and overall lack of quality. Bottom row may be post-war manufacturers? The other items are beyond me. Can you tell us what is and what isn't? Thanks for showing! Tim

Hi Timo, Maybe not modern, but an incorrect ribbon all the same; more than likely a ribbon for the WW1 French Commemorative Medal. The correct ribbon should have seven red stripes vice five. Tim

I'm not into copies but, if you wanted a copy of the VC, the Hancock examples are much better than many of the others out there. Search eBay for several available copies, most are rather poor but they are under $100. The Hancock versions command high prices as they were limited and numbered. Tim

Hi Bill, That's a lot of Austrian U-boat badges! Are they all authentic and can you tell us what some of the differences there are between them? Or, are you just trying to corner the market on these? Just kidding. It's really nice you have the one from your grandfather, really lovely piece of personal family history there. Tim

Water depth ranges from approximately 150-300 feet (50-90 meters) and in most operational areas, closer to the 100-150 foot depth. Not much room for a submarine to be manuvering and trying to stay hidden IMO. I don't think you have too much to worry about. You have more to worry about with the Iranian and Omani gunboats than anything else and I've conned through the Straits of Hormuz on several occasions during Desert Shield/Storm/Southern Watch. Tim

Hi Timo, As I already commented on WAF, #7 is actually the WW1 French Commemorative and not the 1859 Italian Campaign Medal (5 vs 7 red stripes). #8 is the Wound Medal. Tim