medalnet

...same here: [attachmentid=24259]

...well, I use to own this one, but....at least the picture remains: [attachmentid=24258]

...and a spare silver gilt oak leaf:

...and a nice golden 2nd class:

...actually, this gets you directly to the medal fair dates: Medal Fair Schedule

Try one of the upcoming medal fairs in Germany. Some honest dealers may still sell them as fakes for that amount of money. You will find a complete list on the BDOS e.V. web page at: www.bdos.org

This new version of the famous PlM is really popular on ebay. Those surfaced a couple of years ago and were actually sold in Germany as fakes for about 500 to 1000 Euros. Certainly the best fake yet. I was told that those pieces were ! made in Spain, but the tooling broke which explains that one can not get them anymore from the source. I am sure most of you have the book by S.Previtera? There is a PlM pictured that looks mighty close to the one we see so often lately. I need to scan it and post it tonight..... Anyway, this is a fake!!!

No, the bow just indicates the promotion. Regardless of crown or else...

Isn't this actually a police officer?

I agree with that statement. The letter are normally polished and do not how those fine ridges and grooves on their surface. The bachground pattern is something never seen before.

..and this is how it looks like in the book. It is more a quick reference: [attachmentid=23780]

I am positive everybody realised the recent flood of rare, but also common, bars for the 3 different colonial commemorative medals. Yet, I like to post a good example of how the most recent fakes look like. [attachmentid=23545] Please check the following post to see a variaty of orginal pieces: China bars

My little contribution for this topic: [attachmentid=23466]

Looks more like an Oldenburg officer cross to me...

Fellow members, I realy appreciate your input and your sharing your personal thoughts and experience with all of us. I felt it was time to stand up and vent a little bit. Since this is an open forum we will always have to deal with those that just want to make the quick buy, yet... I do believe that helping is the basic engine on our area of collecting. Everybody starting up needs a trustworthy mentor. It is certainly easier today to find information then in the old days without internet and just a few books arround, but every beginner needs special attention since the more information today can sometimes be misleading. I also think that even those who might be in for that one ride may catch on and possibly develop an interest that in the end makes our comunity even stronger and more fun.

Dear Les, I am in full agrement of what you said. Yet it is obvious fact, that the same few fake models appear over and over on eBay again. Should this not be clue enough for most people? (Of course one needs to pay attention over a periode of time, which some people do not invest into. For ebay I would say 2 month is sufficient to figure out that it is always the same stuff.) Rartiy is indeed not the measure, as I can tell from my own experience. As for the case...some Prussian cases are multifunctional.

Thank you !

One of the most common emails I personally get is basically always about any Pour le M?rite, full size or miniature, freshly listed on eBay: "...is it original?" Do people have a lack of common sense? Is collection of orders and decorations directly linked to faith and believe? Take any other common WWI order decoration or medal. How often do you even find a ?regular? Albert Order 1st class with swords listed on eBay or a Zaehringer Lion knight 1st with swords, which is in the same rarity range then the PlM. Doesn't it dawn on those "collectors" or shall I say fan of the PlM community that there is something wrong? I admit to check my lottery ticket every time I play and realize it didn?t win - again. But what are the odds for a genuine PlM surfacing on eBay? I am not saying one shouldn't check, but since those pieces on eBay are the same pieces over and over again it is almost mind boggling that people still think they are real. Every science (Science of Orders and medals actually has a Latin term: ?Phaleristic?) has to do with the comparison of facts, evidence. So, people, go ahead and invest in time, books and start at least some research instead of asking the same stupid question over and over again. And,...there is some help to start some fo the research: http://www.medalnet.net/The_Pour_le_Merite.htm http://www.pourlemerite.org/ http://www.theaerodrome.com/medals/germany/prussia_opm.php

Shouldn't mavery post his commander badge, too? Last model Siebrecht (Zimmermann made) with the silver mark * S? This would complete the circle.

This one is mounted correctly. The inscription is the avers.

...this could almost be a nurse. Just kidding....very nice non-combatant combination!

That's is how it is researched. Some dies were used all the way to the end indeed. Take the PlM for Arts and Science. Never ever changed. Even the original Silver gilt ones are from the same tooling. S-W was the smaller firm anyway and was run until WWI, as researched. Wagner however has always been the much more know company. Not just for those orders and medals, but mainly for heavy silver objects etc. Highly collectible. One thinks order decorations are expensive....?! I have seen those archive documents shoing lists of suppliers to the orders chancerllery and indeed most manufacturers at the seize of e.g. Sy & Wagner arround 1900 were mainly making those mass produced gardes, like Order of the Crown 4th class or Red Eagle 4th class or even Eagle of the "Inhaber". Those court jewelers (like Joh.Wagner & Sohn) were only allowed to make the "good" stuff, like grand crosses and such. Anyway, I think this should make most of us feel cosy. If not, more research is awlays appreciated.

...and of course this explains now the existens of Iron Crosses or Red Eagle Orders last model. As a matter of fact, S-W can be found on documents pertaining to deliveries during the eraly 1910th.

OK, after some more reading, talking and searching: a) House Order of Hohenzollern: It says in German in 6. of the stautes: Hiernach soll Unser Koeniglicher Hausorden in zwei Abteilungen verliehen werden, deren erste zur Belohnung besonderer Hingebung an Unser Koenigliches Haus, die zweite zur Belohnung besonderer Verdienste um die Pflege gottesfuerchtiger und treuer Gesinnung unter der Jugend bestimmt ist. This would translate into somthing like: "The order will exist in two departments, which the cross will be reward for devotion towards our royal house, the eagle for reward of special merit for the cultivation of the religious and faithfull attitude of the youth." So the eagle went mainly to teachers and clerical persons like priests. b) to settle the Sy & Wagner discussion: 1) Hossauer (*October 5, 1794; +January 14, 1874) 2) Emil August Wagner (*April 30, 1826; +?) & Jerimie Sy (*May 15, 1827; +March 30, 1881) taking over Hossauers business in 1859. After Sy's passing the business S&W is run by Johnn Wagner, which explains this change. The original business of Sy & Wagner is still in existens into WWI. (special thanks to Dr.P.Sauerwald)

The "50" Example is typical for the early Sy & Wagner pieces (here we go again). Always hollow and then covered in the rear like the pilots badges from those later days. congrats !!! As already mentioned before, the eagle was in their grades same as the crosses. Grand Eagle, Eagle of the Commanders, knight eagle and eagle of the "bearers"?/Inhaber. Those were primarily awarded to clerical staff, like teachers or priests. The Inhaber is scare, yet all higher grades are extremly, yes, extremly rare. The early examples made by Hossauer are very nice. They are warped and just single sided enameled, yet finely detailed on the reverse.