peter monahan

Oh, Duh! Sorry, it's late here and it's been a long day! "I knew that. Really!" Here's my last kick at this can: some info on these rifles, which are very probably Lee Metfords rather than Lee Enfields. The first quote explains the difference and where they fit in to S.A. Military history, the second site suggests how common they likely were and who may have used them: GENERALLY: The Lee-Metford, entering service at the very end of the black powder era, is the most modern military rifle that was ever built to use black powder. In fact, like the M1888 Austrian Mannlicher, it was developed as the search for a suitable smokeless propellant was going on in Britain and all across Europe. The Lee-Metford is a box mgazine fed, rear-locking, bolt action repeating rifle in the classic British .303 calibre, but loaded at the time of its adoption with black powder. A smokeless cartridge was introduced in the early 1890s and Enfield rifling began to replace Metford with the adoption of the Lee-Enfield in 1895. The Lee was designed by James Paris Lee of Illion, New York (the city of Remington fame) and substantially improved and perfected at Enfield. It utilized a box magazine system also developed by Lee coupled with a barrel and rifling system invented by William E. Metford. The Lee/Metford/Enfield combination began the long line of successful rifles (substituting Enfield rifling when Metford rifling was unable to tolerate the later smokeless cartridge heat and pressures) for Britain, continuing into the 1990s. The period of the Lee-Metford magazine rifle, adopted in 1888, overlapped the service life of the last of the Martini-Henrys, the Mark IVs. In the late 1880s the British were studying repeating rifles as well as searching for improvements to the entrenched Martini-Henry. This led to the adoption, perhaps prematurely, of the .402 Martini-Enfield in 1886 and an "improved" version, more like the Martini-Henry, in 1887. But the soon expected Lee-Metford, in .303 calibre, would have created logistical nightmares, thus the Martini-Enfields were withdrawn and the bulk of them converted to Martini-Henry Mark IVs. The most notable feature of the then very modern Lee-Metford was it's detachable box magazine which could be loaded, either detached or mounted, initially with up to 8 cartridges (The Mark I and Mark I*) and later with as many as 10 (the Mark II). The Mark II* (not shown) is Britain's first purpose-built smokeless powder rifle and is essentially the Lee-Metford with Enfield designed rifling, thus the "Lee-Enfield" of world-over fame. from: http://www.militaryrifles.com/Britain/Metford.htm AND http://library.thinkquest.org/26852/logistics/lee%20metford.htm This site refers to the vast numbers of Lee Metfords and Lee Enfields which were sent to S.A. between 1895 & 1900 and how they may been used, and by whom, after the Boer War

" I had another look at the rifle in question and on the other side of the rifle is a stamp from 1909. I guess it was updated or fixed? " edit: I just had a closer look and the barrel has several "ER" markings so I'm guessing that the barrel was replaced. Many years since I've really known this stuff in detail, and no books to check, but, yes , I'd guess that the "1909" stamp and the "crossed II" are related: the Mk II was modified, re-barrelled or summat in 1909. Not sure what to make of "ER" except that it's unlikely to stand for "Elizabeth Regina" ! More likely it means "Enfield Rifle" or "Enfield R..."?? There are some very good books out there on the Lee Enfield, with all it's marks, though, so if you care you can probably find some more info. I'd be surprised if the Union forces weren't using Lee Enfields through and after WWI and any "old rifles" probaly went to home guard/teritorials or even cadet corps, so these may have seen lots and lots of service, active and/or peacetime. If your man has a barn full of these then they're probably not worth much except as wallhangers. Does "welded" meaning the breech is closed up? If so then getting the bolt to work, etc is probably not possible. Finding replacement magazines is possible,but might easily cost as much as the rifles cost/are worth - at least over here. On the other hand, they do represent an interesting period in SA history, so if they were mine I'd clean them up and hang one on my wall! But keep in mind that free advice is worth what you pay for it. Peter

Jacky BNo name or unit marking at all on the medal? Veddy odd! Or have they been shaved or ground off?

Nice spread on the manufacturers: "Enfield" - British Army arsenal; "Saprbrook" (?, probably a sub-contractor) and London Small Arms Company, one of the bigger sub-contractors. The "II" with a slash/stroke through it may mean a modification on the basic Mk II, though I would have expected some added mark to "update" the II if that were the case. Was there a Mk IIa, IIb, etc, anyone know?

Oh drool! You lucky so-and-so! Wish it were mine! Peter

OOps! My bad! Forgot the e-bay address: http://cgi.ebay.com/Royal-Irish-Brass-Belt...6QQcmdZViewItem Google "belt plates Royal Irish" and you should get the UK maker's site. He does really nice work, for what it is. P

Kev Don't know how I missed this post the first time thru; must have been asleep that day! That is a very nice looking plate. Do you still have it? I did some poking about and, sad to say, the news on the "real vs repro" query is not good. The Royal Irish are a very "collectable" unit for some reason and that means the market for good "repros" is large. And once I unwrap my "sold as repro" plate and re-box it, it's an antique, unless I'm a very honest man. Even when the repros. are marked as such some people can "fix this". I knew a chap who made plates for regiments and so on - Cdn. agent for one of the big UK regalia firms - and he always put in a deliberate flaw. Of course, he never said what the flaw was - to fool the fakers - so the acid test meant getting his opinion on an item. Here are 2 sites, an e-bay and a UK badge maker. Note that one of the 2 RI plates on e-bay says "may be a good copy" and the chap in England makes them. So... A real plate wouldlikely be worth 150-200 pounds to an OR, more to an officer, I'm guessing but you'd need a real pro - not me, for sure, to give one the "OK". OTIH, if you got it for 2 quid or 5o pfennings,it's a lovely example of it's kind "Good copy of a Victorian OR's belt plate". My tuppence worth and remember: free advice is worth what you pay for it! Cheers, mate. Peter

Ed Colour me impressed! Interesting notes on the 24 and their various fates, especially "Failed to return from Rhubarb" ! (I knoe, RAF slang, but a bit odd in the context. Once again, your encyclopedic knowledge wows me. Peter

OK, here's a partial answer. Somebody in Aus. has a collection of uniforms including one for an officer in a Cdn. WWII Highland reg't. The description includes the following: "on his sleeve he wears 4 red [chevrons] to indicate 4 years active service and a silver [chevron] to show he enlisted in 1939. So, you were right: red equals active [overseas] service, blue for home/non-combatant service. The websit - it's a nice photo - is: http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-uniforms/canada.htm

Oh, yes! As to whether or not they were worn through the war: a friend's father gave him/us his old BD tunic and it did have the service chevrons and he wore it until at least march '45, when he caught a leg full of German mortar fragments. BTW - minor linguistic side note - his regiment was the "Regiment de Chaudiere", which considerably confused the folks in Normandy when our boys landed, as in French french a "chaudiere" is a stove! In Quebecois, a language somewhat resembling French, it's the name of river in Quebec!

Ed Call me dim! I still don't see (ignoring Kevin ) where "est. 30-40 ACE Stars" come from. I hasten to add that I believe implicitly that they do exist, even if the Calcutta Mint didn't feel the need to strike any. If you say so, I accept it - and I mean that seriously. But were they RAF members domiciled in India? I'm ashamed to say I don't recall, if I ever knew, whether or not there were Indian Air Force units prior to 1947. Colour me puzzled! Peter

Ed said: "have, by the way, everything WWII named to Indians except F&G [which I hope to correct real soon now!], Atlantic, and ACE -- all are believed to exist, though the last two will, understandably, be incredibly rare to Indians." Ok, I'll bite! I can almost see an Atlantic Star, if Indian merchjant marine types qualified in the way that (eventually) Cdn sailors did but I wouldn't think that "rare" would begin to cover an Air Crew Europe Star! Would an Indian national serving in the RAF fit the bill or were there actually Indian crews in Indian units who made an "operational sortie" over occupied Europe? Enquiring minds want to know! Peter

One tidbit from Wikipedia and a quote from a site which claims to have the definitive info. on "US Federal Medals" "The British Army awarded its first battle honour to the Royal Irish Regiment for the campaigns at Jemappes and Valmy in 1792. During that period, a regiment needed only to engage the enemy with musketry before it was eligible for a battle honour." A nice coincidence! *************** "Although the use of ribbons to designate unit citations is a relatively recent development in the United States, the practice of recognizing units for especially noteworthy performance is by no means new. The use of ribbon bars to denote unit citations grew out of the European custom of decorating the "colors" of military units. ... The British historically employed a different means for recognizing units. They embroider their colors with the names of important engagements in which the unit participated. However, the British do not award specific decorations to their colors. The French, on the other hand, not only embroider their colors with the names of a unit's four most important engagements, they also award specific decorations to military units. They use a cravate (ribbon) which is attached to the staff that carries the colors, and when a unit is cited in orders of the army for extraordinary services a Croix de Guerre is attached to the cravate. If a regiment is decorated twice its individual members are entitled to wear a fourragere in the colors of the Croix de Guerre (red and green). If a color is decorated four times, members of the unit may wear a fourragere in the colors of the Medaille Militaire (yellow and green); and after a regiment has been decorated six times its members may wear a fourragere in the colors of the Legion of Honor (red). A number of other nations employ similar methods for recognizing the performance of their military units."

NotNed said: "And south africans did so did the ( not 100% sure here) Rhodesians and Canadians." I'm almost certain that Canadian Stars and medals were NOT named. If they are, i've been missing a bet all these years. Peter

Very interesting - thanks for the pictures ! Never seen these before ... Do you by any chance know who they were awarded to ? Cheers, Hendrik

Oh, Duuh! Here we are! (Sorry, it's early in the a.m. on a holiday weekend here.) "Colonel Mark Campbell, Regimental Colonel of The Royal Irish Regiment, said: "The Conspicuous Gallantry Cross honours the service, sacrifice and achievements of The Royal Irish Regiment and its Home Service predecessor, The Ulster Defence Regiment. It will be emblazoned onto the Regimental Colours, a unique reminder of the gallantry of those who served in Northern Ireland." Emphasis mine. And is the Colonel's use of "unique" accurate or speechmaking rhetoric? Peter

Obviously I didn't look carefully enough for the award mentioned! The Americans have a Presidential Unit Citation which was awarded to, among others, the Gloucester Reg't (almost sure its them) for service in Korea, where a member won the VC. It is worn as a ribbon on the uniform of members of the unit receiving the award and, I think by all members, not just those serving when it was awarded. However this is the first I've heard of the Br. gov't recognizing a unit of the armed forces with something other than a battle honour, unless one counts the award of the George Cross to the island of Malta for its stout resistance to the Axis in WWII. The George Cross, BTW, is now part of the flag of Malta. Presumably someone will come up with a wearing protocol. At an outsiders guess, some version of the ribbon on the uniforms and maybe an "honour" on the colours as well ? BTW, you British specialists, is this a unique occurence for a British unit? Peter

PZULBA I'm not sure what you're referring to here. I've found two references to Royal Irish Regiment soldiers getting gallantry medals, but neither was the Conspicuous gallantry Cross. Here's one reference: "Private Johnson Beharry is awarded the Victoria Cross...Other members of Pte Beharry's regiment, the Princess of Wales' Royal Regiment, were also honoured. Lieutenant Colonel Matthew Maer and Major James Coote received the Distinguished Service Order. Sergeant Christopher Broome received the Conspicuous Gallantry Cross. Warrant Officer David Falconer, Sergeant David Perfect, Corporal Brian Wood and Private Troy Samuels were awarded the Military Cross, along with Lieutenant Richard Deane of the Royal Irish Regiment. Deane was on attachment to the Princess of Wales' Royal Reg't at the time. Here's the other reference: A book-writing Belfast soldier with the Royal Irish Regiment has been honoured by the military for courage in Iraq. Lance Corporal Trevor Coult, based in Inverness, was awarded the Military Cross for bravery during an ambush. It is the military's third highest bravery honour, behind the Conspicuous Gallantry Cross and the Victoria Cross. BTW, the South African Irish reg't is listed as a regiment associated with the RIR. Peter

Gordon I believe that Graham has the right of it: in the days before the "chip" records were handwritten or typed and kept all over the place, so re-uniting an old soldier with his records or number when he "re-upped" would be tough. He could prove previous service with a discharge certificate but his original number would be very unlikely to fit into the "block" being used at any given time by his new unit. it's sometimes hard to remember, too, thatin those days, civilians didn't have numbetrs attached to them, unlike today. (I have a Social Insurance Number for employement, taxes and other federal government business, an Ontario Hospital Insurance Number - self explanatory, a passport, a number on my teaching certifictae... ad naseum. Ergo, new enlistment = new number. My tuppence worth. Peter

[attachmentid=56232] Nick This the uniform of an officer of the Glengarry Light Infantry Fencibles, raised in Upper Canada in 1812, mostly from Scots ex-soldiers settled in eastern Kingston. The "Glens" modelled themselves on the ^0th and 95th Rifles, thopugh they were disbanded in 1816 before their baker Rifles. This uniform is a very carefully researched and beautifully constructed reproduction of a GLI uniform, based as i understand it, very very closely on a Rifles uniform. if You like i can post or PM you more photos of the same outfit. Peter

Moore I happen to know, fairly well, the chap who was the historical consultant on Master and Commander and who stayed with Weir for some time after the movie's release In fact, he was in Spain for the release there. Gord Laco is his name and he is a sailor and ships chandler when he's not doing historical film. He says there is almost no chance of a Part two to M&C because it simply did not make enough money. Pity!

Hello Igor, First, MacKenzie/McKenzie/M'Kenzie would all be common spellings of this name in 1815, which complicates the matter somewhat. There are no brigade or regimental commanders listed in the British / Dutch forces at Waterloo. See Wikipedia for the order of battle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Batt...ampaign#I_Corps There was a Major General John Mackenzie commanding the British and Sicilian forces on the island of Sicily in November of 1812, so he may have been in Belgium in 1815 but there is no mention of him (except the Sicily reference) in the very good "Wellington's Armies" by the National Army Museum. Is "McKenzie" actually named in Wellington's despatch of August and if so is it possible that he was not at Waterloo but joined the Army of occupation or that he was serving in some diplomatic role? (Anyone with access to Nosey's despatches?) Curious!

Oops! Forgot to add that most military musicians in the Empire would wear their regiments badge on headdress, with musical badges on the uniform itself. For a time (Napoleonic era) British Army musicians apparently wore a drum badge on the back of their shakos but more common was a drum, set of pipes, etc worn on the tunic sleeve. Not sure but I suspect this was also how other armies handles it. Peter

The classical "lyre" (fancy Greek for 'harp') is a pretty standard symbol of music and musicians across Europe and the various former empires it founded. And, as the others state, bands clad in miltary style uniforms were a feature of both Old World and New in the late 18th, early 19th centuries. (I suspect that WWI was what pushed them out of fashion.) Peter

Robin I think you'd find that there were exactly two types and no "other", so regardless personal beliefs/philosophy one qualified for "Christian" (the vast majority) or "Non -C". As Ed says, there were many Jews in the Imperial Army and the subsequent antics of Adolf et al would not necessarily have dissuaded a super-nationalistic (Jewish) veteran from joining a FreiKorp unit. On a related (sorta) note: when my father was a starving graduate student in 1950 he was paid to collect census data for the Cdn government. Under "Religion" the choices were (in no particular order): Catholic, Jew, Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran. No "Muslim", Sikh, Buddhist, jain and definitely no "None of the above" ! One was obliged by law to answer all questions and therefore, by inference, to choose one of those categories! Strange old world! Peter