peter monahan

Ed The ribbon on Sham Singh's gong is kind of grizzly looking. Is that natural fading or a locally made ribbon? P

Ed Lovely, especially the bronze "Abor"! I'm rusty on my I.A. nomenclature, though. What's a "3rd Class S.A.S. in the I.S.M.D." ?? I'm guessing it's NOT "Imperial Service Mule or Medical Dept." Peter

Same here, laurence! BTW, the Royal Newfoundland Reg't was originally raised in 1795, then disbanded (1803) after the Peace of Paris then re-raised in 1805 and had a distinguished service in Upper Canada from 1812-1816 (Ask me some day if you're bored! ). Then disbanded again till 1914, when raised as "The Newfoundland Reg't", known on the island and elsewhere as "The Blue Puttees". In WWI they were at Gallipoli (heavy casulties) then France/Flanders. Chris' photo shows their memorial at beaumont Hamel, wher they suffered 78% casulties in one day. They were the only unit in the Empire to earn the "Royal" title during WWI. In WWII they were designated an artillery unit (Mediums?) and, I believe, stayed in Nfld, though almost certainly sent drafts overseas to other RCA units. A proud regiment, still part of our Reserve Force. I'm sure your dad has good reasons and memories for the badge. Peter Monahan, Sergeant, Bulger's Company, Royal Newfoundland Regiment of Fencible Infantry (War of 1812 Re-enactment unit)

This came up recently on another site I lurk near. Apparently the term (translated) is found in classical Greek accounts of battles, etc - presumably meaning a "vertical pile" of spears, etc. As Michael says, in 1812 in the British Army it meant THREE muskets - probably with bayonet and cartridge box for each. I can do the interlocking ramrods trick Michael mentions and they're pretty secure but I've also got up to 5-6 on the stand by leaning the extras round the outside. (Risking eternal damnation and the RSM' wrath if they drop!) By the ACW it seems to have meant 4, as that's how they stacked them. Too many more means they can't be grabbed quickly, which is half the point! Having seen Lee Metfords and Lee Enfields with piling swivels (1890-1900 period) , I strongly suspect that 3 was still the magic number, the way the swivel is configured, but haven't ever checked the referecnes. Anyway, a "stand of arms" is "a field expedient for stacking (muskets/firelocks/boar spears)". My tuppence wotrth and change! Peter

Lovely, lovely stuff, Ed! Keep it up, you'll never bore us! Getting harder and harder to get the drool off my keyboard, though! Peter

1) I believe that the 22nd Dragoons and the 24th Lancers were war-raised units (WWII), say 1941-45 or 46. presumably it was felt that giving them cavalry titles would be a morale booster/recruiting plus rather than just creating 2 more numbered armoured units. Nice to see these two - they can't be common if good. 2) I haven't "done" badges in almost 20 years but when I did, way back then, there were already mutterings about repro RNAS badges because early armour badges were so rare and desireable. You might want to check that one out with an expert. My tuppence worth. Peter

Very Nice, Sam! I've always loved the IGS medals - both good looking and generally representing some fairly serious service in "Queen Victoria's little wars"! 5th Punjabis were a Frontier Force unit (a.k.a. Vaughan's Rifles) - one of the tough bunch who garrisoned the frontier with Afghanistan and were, at least in theory, a quick reaction force 100 years before that term was invented! Nice gong! Peter

False etymologies are "common as muck"! many, like "posh" are allegedly acronyms: g.o.l.f., f.u.c.k., etc. BUT acronyms are almost exclusively a 20th century invention because, among other things, they depend on universal literacy to be widely recognizable: scuba, ROM, and so on. Also, the false etymologies are often much more interesting than the boring old truth. "Brass monkeys" were NOT brass triangles - this has been widely researched and disproven on another (1812 Royal navy) list. probably just a colourful turn of speech with no (so far) traceable origin. Cannon balls were not stacked on deck - think really BIG waves - but kept in holes in a wooden plank running below the railing (forget the name, not a sailor): ready to the guns and secure. "Show a leg" - again, I'm guessing that canny old bosun's mates could tell men from women without a peep show! More liekly it simply meant "Get your legs outta that hammock and on the bl**din' deck!" "Here I come, with a sharp knife a a clean conscience! Show a leg! Out or down!" (In extremis. laggards had the hammock ropes cut to speed them to the deck. My tuppence worth and more! Peter

Danny In a very good popular history of Australia - "The Barren Shore" - the author talks briefly of the exiled rebels and what a tough time they had there because, apparently, the average transportee was a patriot! The habitants were bullied and browbeaten and in a few cases beaten up for being rebels by the thieves, forgers and other british criminals. Queer world! Another footnote: the current Law Society of Upper Canada building in Toronto is surronded by a lovely wrought iron fence dating from the 1840's or so. It's 10' tall, spiked on top and the entrances are enclosed in little cages with a V-shaped gate which restricts entry to one person at a time. All a good 30 yards from the building. Locals have told me "It was to keep the cows out." but it looks like a riot barrier to me! My tuppence. Wher, if i may ask, are you publishing the article? I have a friend who's fascinated by the rebellions. Peter

Got it in one, Rick! Men (a few) were hanged or transported to Australia. Others fled to the US. In fact, Canadian Prime Minister William Lyon Mackenzie King in the 1930's proudly showed King George the reward poster published by the King's grandfather in an effort to capture William Lyon Mackenzie, King's granfer. King kept it on his living room wall! In Upper Canada (Ontario) the rebellion was over the attempt to get responsible government: a governor who'd have to resign if he did not have the confidence of the assembly. After some months of increasingly radical speeches, a number of rurals armed mostly with homemade pikes marched on Toronto. They met the local militia on the outskirst, each party fired one volley and both sides fled. The rebels were hunted down over the next few months and tried. In Lower Canada the unrest was also fuelled by the fact that the governor and cabinet were English Protestants and the populace mostly French Catholic. Several nasty pitched battles between "habitant" rebels and British troops led to perhaps a hundred caualties and the next year there was even an abortive invasion from the US which led to a last battle "The Battle of the Windmill". Several hundred men tarnsported. Hardly the stuff of martial glory, though key to Canada's political success. Are you bored yet? Even most Canadians can't get excited about this one. "We don't publisize nasty LITTLE local rebellions by people who look like us." Peter

Efforts to study his [Gandhi's] medals in detail have been unsuccessful (no one could find the key to the display case) and I shall be making a major effort again this summer. (PS- Much of what has been published on the issue of Gandhi's medals is rubbish, by the way.) Ed I should have known you'd know! Luckily, I've never heard/read about his medals, so no rubbish to correct in my tiny mind. Good luck with the research!

There were IA units at Monte Casino, including Ghurkas: among other things they did incredible work mna-carrying supplies up the mountain, at night, under fire, for the British and Allied units. The empty trenches sounds like a Ghurka type story and certianly one they'd enjoy spreading. I was lucky enough to be taken to the Ghurka Museum at Aldershot and then through Sandhurst on a tour with a friend, ex-colonel of the 10th G. Rifles, many years ago. At the time the current "best story" was of the wee lads in the Falklands. Young Argie recruits had been told that the Ghurkas were cannibals! When captured, wounded, and sleeping peacefully in a Br field hospital they'd be wakened by a nudge on the bed to the sight of 4-6 little brown men brandishing kukris and FORKS and grinning hugely. Hilarious from the Ghurka point of view! Sadly, the British Ghurkas were a much diminished force then. One of the 3 regiments was always in Hong Kong, where they did the anti-illegals border work and one was in Brunei, but the lads in ENgland didn't take to it all that well. A number of the soldiers have been busted bringing drugs into Britain and few British officers wanted to make a career with then, so they tended to get a rotating roster of officers posted from other branches who spoke no Gurkhali and had little commitment to the unit. One can only hope that has changed over the years, but it was sad to see a proud fighting force so reduced. Peter

Bronzes are the classic "unsung heroes" medal: labour and transport corps, cooks and sweepers and sanitary wallahs. All the men who made living in the army bearacle for the rest! Mahatma Ghandi served with a unit of stretcher bearers so, if he had a SA Medal I think it would have been bronze. That would be one to have! (Did he throw it back as a symbol of imperialism??) I didn't comment on Ed's earlier posting of the silver medal with SA 1900 bar to a Lancer, Indian Army but once upon a time I tried to compile a list of such. Many sowars (troopers) went out with shipments of remounts for the cavalry and mounted infantry and seem to have stayed on in some cases as horse breakers, so this single bar issue is not too too rare. General Roberts had two Indian orderlies who each wore 5 or 6 bar medals eventually and it's likely that other Indian troops went as individuals accompanying their British officers. Kipling has a really touching/nasty story of an ICO and the revenge he takes on a Boer household after his British officer was murdered in an ambush (under flag of truce). The story is called "A Sahib's War" if you're interested. Apparently a number of british Indian officers "took home leave" (which was typically 12 months) and set off for SA before the authorities caught on and banned it. So the Indian silvers are out there if one looks hard. Peter

Going only on memory here, I believe that the current Israeli Army has a Druze unit used in border patrol/security operations. Said to be very loyal, good at tracking and scout work and apolitical: neither Muslim, Jew nor Christian. May or may not be relevant to your query. For what it's worth. Peter

Many many years ago I read (but do not/did not own) a book on the Waffen SS foreign volunteers. The picture that stuck in my mind , because of my interest in things Indian, was a late war flak battery manned by Azad Hind members in, I think I recall, Wehrmacht gray with SS collar runes. Couldn't begin to quote a source except that it would have been an easily accessible book 25-30 years ago: English text, mass market, not an obscure specialist work. Or is my memeory at fault, Ed? Peter

Kev I guess the lighthouse should have been a clue to me, eh? My bad! Shot from the lip and goofed. Thanks for the correction. Peter

PK On a fairly regular basis over here in Canada, usually after someone has defaced a synagogue, some earnest person writes to the newspapers to point out that the swastika is "an ancient [Hindu / Native / Aryan / Vedic} symbol", not the property of the Third Reich and NSDAP, and should really by rehabilitated and returned to its former glory. I do love optimists! Peter

Nice group, lovely photo! I'll bet he terrified the Terriers he instructed! Did he serve as a Horse Keeper to build up that chest measurement, one wonders, or did he just grow. Really interesting detail - clearly he knew what he wanted to do in life, and did it. Peter

Royal GARRISON Artillery. Irish Light HORSE (better late than never on this)

On a similar note of inquiry as Djedi's: I have a lovely Turkish kinjul, recently received as a gift, with a gold inscription on the blade. Does any of you gentlmen read Persian script or know where I might get it translated? I can send an image but probably not to this forum - still wrestling with the size restriction thing. Any help or suggestions would be much appreciated! Lovely, lovely decorations, BTW. I drool in your collective direction! Peter

As mentioned on the other thread (by me ) the British began, about 1780 or so, to use "Turkish music" in their regimental bands: big drums and "Jingling Johnies". The band was a privately paid for regimental showpiece, not the fifes and drums the King provided. Anyway, one status symbol was to have a black in harem pants and turban to play the cool new instruments, Turks being few on the ground in 19th century Europe. The blacks in the Br service were sometimes slaves but usually freemen, hired as musicians (ie: civilian employees of the reg't). The custom seems to have died out in the mid 1800's but it's interesting that it persisted in Germany. Closer to home, I recall my surprise the first time I saw two kilted Chinese members of the 48th Highlanders of Canada, a local militia regiment. Strange old world. Peter

Can't quote chapter and verse, but there was one court martial of a recently discharged private soldier (Irish) for selling his gongs, in the mid 1860's I think. I recall being surprised because he can't have been the only one by a long shot! The circumstantial detail, if memory serves, was that a serving sergeant bought them to sew on his second best tunic (no medal bars back then and few suspenders), someone noticed that Sergeant Smith was wearing Private O'Hooligan's group and, presumably decided to make an example of the ex-private: "This sort of offence is becoming entirely too common." Poor sod got hammered. Plus ca change!

BigJar I remember (many many years ago) being in a store in Canada when a chap came in with two Falklands War medals. This was within 3-6 months of the end of the campaign, but each had a slip of paper stating that they'd been bought in Liverpool the week the Queen Mary docked there on her return from the South Atlantic. Both were named to Royal Marines. I can't attest, obviously, to the truth of the stories but I do recall reading that within a very short time of the initial issue all replacements were being so marked before issue due to the distressingly high rate of "lost" medals among serving troops. I also recall that the prices were in the hundreds of dollars/pounds so even regulars may have succumbed to the temptation to earn some easy money! Peter

Maybe he was recruiting barbers for the Greater Reich? Peter

Knew a Marine Gunner once, a "mustang" promoted from the ranks who got "downsized" right out of his commission and served another ten years as a senior NCO. He says he used to regularly get saluted first by Lts and Captains who'd been commissioned and served with/under him when he was a Major. Go figure! Peter