Chris Liontas

What a story!!! Outstanding Chris! The site just gets better and better!

Chris this is an amazing grouping. Was this the official death certificate from the government, or from the unit? I have several WWII era death notifications, each of them poignant reminders of wars cost. An amazing grouping!

closer shot

Here is a shot of my Heer insiniga display. The tabs and photo I got from Chris are in the top left corner as you look at the frame. The frame contains several different variations of Heerespfarrer collar tabs including Catholic, Protestant, dress insignia, and one set of Field Bishop tabs. The armband is a named armband from Heerespfarrer Hans Bunkel who lived in a town in North Germany, Uelzen. Pfarrer Bunkel was a Protestant Heerespfarrer, but unfortunately that is all I know. He is not listed in the 1939 listings, so he must have been called to active service after the war began. The crosses are for the visor cap, and the overseas cap respectivly. The smaller dull silver one was taken from a extreemly moth eaten hat, which was then thrown away by the vet (Arrgg). The larger one for the Schirmutze was from an older collection. The tinnies are for a German Lutheran Day (the round one), A German Christian girls organization (the green one), and the kind of spear head looking one is a tinnie for the Deutches Christian Movement (which was a rabid organization that tried to make Jesus un-jewish and Nazify Christianity as much as possible...I have an account from a Cathoic Priest that was stunnned when a fellow Heerespfarrer gave a sermon that came entirely from the Nazi playbook rather than the Bible. The Catholic Priest was happy to get transferred to the front to get away from the DCM pastor) The Field Bishops tabs are kind of a interesting point. They came from an advanced collection,and are really nice! They have been sewn on to a tunic.....but are they real? I can tell you I just dont know. Its possible these came from one of the field bishops tunics....but is is probable???.....I'm happy and that is all the counts The green songbook came from Chris B with the tabs, overseas hat, and photo. The brown one is one I got a while ago. The green is Protestant, the brown is Catholic. Both are by M.Mittler and Sohn who seemed to be the major supplier of these books in the second world war. In the first world war, there were several companies that provided prayerbooks. In World War II, only M. Mittler and Sohn seems to have been able to supply the front in bulk. The company supplied prayerbooks before 1900 to the Imperial Army, and the publishing house is still in existance today (although is much smaller form) The shoulderboards on the bottom are modern Protestant (cross) and Catholic (with the crown) shoulder boards

Hi Chris! Yup sure did! That, a prayerbook, and a small photo. I have the tabs displayed in an overall tab display. I'll snap a photo of it tomarrow

I agree Rick! I have no idea what made these so popular. I have talked to both Steve Wolf and George Petersen about these repro tabs, and both have stated they have been around since the early 70's, and were marketed as such. The wierd thing is, who would WANT Navy Field Bishop tabs in that kind of number? One thought that has been buzzing around in my head, the repro artist might NOT have known the difference between t he Field Bishop rank and the regular Marinepfarrer rank. They may have thought they were cranking out regular tabs, I dont know any other reason. I want to continue this discussion with some photos here compareing the real deal with the fakes. There are 500 fake Navy tabs to ever real tab out there.

another shot, shows the violet piping really well

It's amazing just how small a world this is. I was talking to Chris Boonzaier via the forum (PMs) the other day, long story short we started talking about my collecting field, German Chaplain's items. He mentioned the only thing he ever found was (besides some armbands -- another story) a German Chaplain's overseas cap, photo, prayer book, and collar tabs at the Weisbaden flea market. Chris said he sold those items a long time ago to Bill Shea, and honestly forgot a lot about them. Well heck....I was at Bill Shea's house when he recieved word that a chaplain's overseas hat was coming in from Germany. I immedately spoke for the hat before it even arrived. At the time I didnt even know Chris. Well here is is, about 7 years later, and I find out that my hat came from who I consider to be a good collecting friend. Its just amazing that one of my best pieces came from Chris, and I can now put some history behind the hat--rather than just have it sitting on the wall!

You know Barry, I am going more and more to this route. It seems the more I research it, the best way to save the documents is to display a good copy, and keep the other in a binder. My only problem with going to Kinkos is the large Swastica on the promotion document that I would be copying. Not really the greatest thing to be carrying around -- Right now I have the document hanging on a wall (no sunlight near it) in an Indian River display case (with replaced foam in back and Acid Free backing). I thought this along with good climate control might do the trick.

A question about framing documents. Do you want the document itself to not touch the glass of the frame? I have heard this will cause problems long term for the document. I have a de-humidifier in the room, and check moisture regularly, but what about the paper touching the glass? Thanks all!

Hello all! Is there any reference that compares the US and Germany's subs in world war II? I am interested in the abilities of the boats compared to one another. Since both Germany and the US relied heavily on Submarines in World War II, a comparison of their main operational boats would probably be interesting. Thanks all

WOW!!!! Chris I dont know what else to say!!

This forum is absolutely amazing!! I not only get the Priest's military history, I get his home address! AWESOME!! Thanks a ton guys!

Closeup Does the wear of the ribbons indicate Austrian?

I was able to get this named photo from Robert Noss in Germany. Looking at the photo, I would guess pre 1914 service, but after that I dont have any idea. Any idea on the medals this priest is wearing? Thanks a ton in advance!

Everlasting be his memory.

Thought this was supposed to be a non-political forum?

Awesome display! Did you make the display case? Tell us a little about that--it looks outstanding

Rick makes some outstanding points in his argument. He is right in that you can find Bishops tabs all over the market for the Navy version, however you rarely even see repros in the Army version. I have not idea why repros of Navy lower and senior ranks collar tabs became so popular to reproduce. They are all over in abundance on the 'net. When originals surface now (lower ranks in silver), they are running a price tag from $2000 - $4000 a set. Hopefully in the posts here we can come to some consensus on these tabs -- I will post some originals, compare to senior SS tabs (for the bullion work--one of the only other tabs with that much bullion is a good comparison via construction methods), and some fakes from horrible to not so bad. I can tell you that fakers are correcting their past mistakes on these tabs. And in 5-10 year the design will be right.

Tabs

From Rick: OK, no takers so far? I can't accept-- "salesmen's samples" (why show what no one else would want--do you have THAT in a Luftwaffe flak...?) or "1946" (huddled in their roofless workshop, the gals at Schildkrote & Steinpelz churn out dozens upon dozens of the only OTHER thing they have to offer the Occupying Powers....) or the ever popular (attached to dubious medals, as if this makes them better) "British-made 1950s" (yes, yes, the Average Collector of 1958--like the Average Collector of 2001, did NOT want SS Panzer material, they wanted elderly clergymen's badges--of course! High demand = volume sales!) or "the Oliver Stone Version" (you know Stalin's famous sneering retort: "How many divisions does the Pope have?" what if... !!! Naw--all those Italian Masons woulda squealed by now!) even the "absolutely every single thing you own was made between 3 PM 18th April 1946 and 7 AM 29 October 1951, in greater numbers by far than ever existed during the war" version still runs headlong into the "salesmen's sample" rebuttal from above: who long decades past WANTED this sort of stuff? "Exotica" collectors then as now wanted SS-Uboat Badges mit Rubinen, Rudolf Hess Presentation Toothpick Holders and all that sort of thing, not ministers' collar tabs, not civilian employees' shoulder boards, not all those boring little obscure items which no matter how actually rare, were NEVER in "demand." Are there factories in Sri Lanka churning out RAD soup bowls? (Please don't tell me, please, even if there are!) So-- either there are thousands of originals for three old guys to wear Mondays through Saturdays, or every single one of these blessed (sorry) things is a fake, and it took 40 years for the "sharpies" at Warsaw Wholesale Wool Re-Processing and Rawalpindi Handy-Dandy Custom Needleworks to figure out they could make more money at, oh, breast eagles, cuff titles, Luftwaffe flight badges, etc--and all that time their sales were stagnant churning out unwanted Chaplains' tabs! Eez a puzzlement.

Now the Posting: From Rick: These beautiful bullion and plush collar tabs are in the collection of a friend. I have personally handled them. They convince me in every way, based on all the other similar Third Reich tabs (Luftwaffe being most similar) that they ARE genuine, original, and as we collectors say, "good." the quality, construction, materials, age-- everything is "as it should be"-- I see nothing wrong with these. They pass every test. And yet: at any given national level show, several pairs can readily be found. At any given moment, you can no doubt turn up a pair somewhere among your favorite online dealers. Am I questioning ANY of these sellers' honesty, integrity, and experience? No indeed. MY honesty, integrity, and experience would be right there in solidarity beside them! And yet (this IS a Learning Exercise!) statistics cannot lie, here: There were, during the entire period of the Third Reich when these were worn, precisely THREE--count 'em, THREE-- Clergymen entitled to wear them: 1) Franz Dohrmann (1881-1969), Protestant Field Bishop of the Wehrmacht (army AND navy, simultaneously) from 1 April 1934 to surrender 22 April 1945, 2) Franz Rarkowski (1873-1950), Catholic Field Bishop of the Wehrmacht (army AND navy, simultaneously) from 1 October 1929 (acting, confirmed only in 1938) until 6 February 1945 (though on sick leave from 27.1.44), and 3) Friedrich Ronneberger (1886-1968), who although only "senior Naval Deacon" ("dienst?ltester Marinedekan") and Chaplain of the North Sea Station from 31.8.36-8.5.45, for some reason was granted these insignia, possibly from his "seniority" of 11 December 1939, but certainly by the end of the war. He held this position ONLY in the Navy. For those who would squeal and yell and say that of course all of their dozens and hundreds of insignia are absolutely original--I am NOT arguing with you. Statistics, however, argue with us ALL: THREE clergymen. Period. NO OTHERS. Volume 4 of "Deutschlands Admirale 1849-1945" gives ALL the military bishops (always joint army AND navy) for that entire century. There were, in 100 years, NEVER more than ONE Protestant and ONE Catholic military bishop at any time. No "Assistant Bishops." No "Under Bishops." No "Really, Really Senior Chaplains." In fact, there were very often GAPS in having any Catholic representative at all, given "Ultramontaine" problems, from Bismarck through Hitler. Authorized strengths for military chaplains were: one of each Protestant and Catholic PER DIVISION. 500--or 1,000--chaplains in the military did not require more than one Bishop "each" any more than the normal civilian parishes did. During the Third Reich period there were NO ancient retirees who had previously held the position recalled to Wehrmacht duty, ever. The only photos one ever sees in published works always show Dohrmann (a diminutive fellow) and Rarkowski (a Friar Tuck type) in ARMY uniform. No doubt, whenever their official duties took them to some naval function, they then wore naval uniform for a couple of hours. Ronneberger, of course, wore his all the time. Statistics: how many reefer jackets do two "part time" naval Bishops wear out during the Third Reich? How many overcoats, if indeed they may have even worn these tabs on those? How many such outfits would Deacon Ronneberger have worn out, or ruined, 1939-45? Let us be liberal and say that each of these men had FOUR full suits of naval clothing, averaged together. That is a grand total in the history of the world of one dozen pairs of these tabs. One dozen pairs. Were military outfitters working round the clock mass producing these insignia in case Vatican hordes or the successors of Luther suddenly flooded into the ranks of the Wehrmacht? Would more than a single retailer have kept more than a half dozen pairs in a cardboard box in case either Bishop needed a sudden emergency spilled-gravy-on-'em/lost luggage replacement? OK, one dozen insignias on tunics. Half a dozen in a cardboard box in Kiel. EIGHTEEN pairs. Subtract war, and the losses of 56 years, and how many of the eighteen pairs can possibly statistically be left? And yet they are at every show. Not counting all of them ALREADY in collections all over the world. I am not saying that they are fake. The ones, like this pair, that I have seen all look good enough to "convince" me. (There are also horrible recent fakes, not talking about those). Many of these insignia that I have personal knowledge of have been resting in the same collections since the 1960s. For those of you too young to remember back then, all fakes sucked, big time, back then. So-- how can we possibly account for THREE Bishop-equivalents, 60 years on, leaving happy collectors and dealers all around the globe in possession of "their" insignia? I certainly cannot explain it. This is like all the pieces of the "True Cross," which if combined, could build entire Cathedrals! A mystery neither "science" nor experience can explain.... PS for fakers and idiots who I have now provided with the only names possible above, who now think they can "improve" their insignia by inking initials

With the posting of the fantastic set of Navy ribbon bars by Webr55 from Naval Deacon (Marinedekan) Friedrich August Ronneberger I thought it was a good time to revive this thread from the WAF. The Navy tabs were discussed at some length on that site years ago, without the benefit of photographs to compare the tabs to. I am going to post the thread here that Rick started, and continue it over the next few days and hopefully expand it a little bit. First off, the Marine Deacon of the German Navy in World War II. There was one in the entire Navy, and Deacon Ronneberger comprised one of three clergy to attain the military rank of Bishop during World War II making it one of the rareest ranks in the german military.

Hey Gordon! I just recieved my copy yesterday---needless to say I was up reading until the wee hours! A fantastic book!! Thank you for all your efforts! The layout is outstanding!

WOW!!! All I can say is WOW! So what is the consensus? Do you all think it was his? Talk about amazing! Thank you for posting that photo of the Marinedekan in his uniform. I have been looking for a good shot of that for a while now. Would you mind if I used that photo to start another thread? Rick and I had a disscussion about Navy Decan's collar tabs a long time ago--and now with a photograph it might be a good time to bring it back up