A DCM, MM and 2 bar combination I cannot pin down !

[Paul L Murphy]

One of the items in my collection is a set of service dress ribbons that have been cut from a tunic. The medal combination is pretty special : -

DCM, MM & 2 bars, Kings Police Medal, 1908-35 IGSM, 1939-45 Star, Africa Star with 1, Italy Star, France & Germany Star, 1939-45 War Medal, 1918-62 GSM, 1962 CSM with MID, Army LSGC medal, MSM, Territorial Efficiency Medal, 1939 Croix de Guerre, Belgian Medal of the Order of the Crown.

I thought this would be easy to pin down but I cannot find anybody who was entitled toa DCM and three MMs. Anybody out there able to shed some light on this ?

Paul

ps. I do not have any decent photos of the set, my apologies. However it has definitely not been tampered with and the roses have been on the MM ribbon a long time.

[bigjarofwasps]

Hi,

I can`t find any record of any Gallantry KPM winners with these other medals. The nearest I`ve got is Insp James O`Donnell who won the MM twice.

There is however a memeber on the forum who I`m sure will be able to answer your question......Ian Hall, what he doesn`t know about the KPM/QPM isn`t worth knowing........Ian are you out there???

Gordon.

[Paul L Murphy]

The KPM is on the Meritorious Service ribbon, not the gallantry type. The problem I am having is that I cannot find anyone who won a DCM and three MMs !

[Ed_Haynes]

That has GOT to be identifiable. Accoding to Abbot and Tamplin, there were only two (maybe just one). They only name the name for the one they were able to trace in the London Gazette, Sergeant F. W. Kite, Royal Tank Regiment (and, note, they show no D.C.M. for him). Through 1979 (when their figures stop), there were no post-war MM** awards.

While we all know how cranky the online London Gazette is, it is a marvelous source. I have looked (briefly) and turned up nothing that would target Kite. And that means nothing. Still looking . . .

I don't have the Brown or McDermott books on the DCM (as they weren't awarded to Indians) or the Farmery book on the gallantry KPM (thought it could be a distinguished service KPM -- which ribbon is it?).

We can nail this, one way or the other. Real (and rare), fake (and sad), or a Walter-Mitty-ed fantasy.

I love puzzles like this.

[Ed_Haynes]

The KPM is on the Meritorious Service ribbon, not the gallantry type. The problem I am having is that I cannot find anyone who won a DCM and three MMs !

Goody, one question answered. Will be hard to trace.

[Ed_Haynes]

Well, . . . .

An "F. C. Kite" is shown with the DCM (1/6 Glosters) at http://members.tripod.com/~Glosters/DCM.html

F.C. Kite - Sjt. - 11 March 1920 - 1/6th Bn. Italy - "He has always set a fine example of gallantry and determination to those under him. During the operations previous to the advance to the Trentino, and during the advance itself, he discharged his duties with the greatest efficiency in spite of the severest strain and long marches." (from Bath)

Is this a "merged" family group? Reaching for anything . . . .

[Ed_Haynes]

On Kite MM** see:

http://www.geocities.com/nasenoviny/sgtKiteEN.html

And, to quote:

Fred Kite was the only soldier to win three Military Medals in the Second World War and doubly honoured by having all three presented by King George VI. The M.M.'s along with Fred's campaign medals, can be seen at the Tank Museum in Bovington, Dorset.

Think they'd have mentioned a DCM?

[Ed_Haynes]

Just a thought: A DCM or an ISO? If he did go on in the police, . . . ???

Edited September 17, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Paul L Murphy]

I have Brown's book on the DCM and Kite is not shown there so I presume it is not him. Your idea of the ISO is very interesting indeed, I never even tought of that.

[Paul L Murphy]

OK, it is not Kite since he did not qualify for the IGS or the Italy Star (there is a photo of his medal group in Bate & Smith). However, there was a second person who received 3 MMs in WWII and that is CSM F L Dixon of The Essex Scottish, a Canadian regiment. The only problem with him is that this regiment does not appear to have served in North Africa or Italy since they were decimated at Dieppe (where he won his MM) and then landed in Normandy in July 44 (after which he won the two bars).

[Michael Johnson]

OK, it is not Kite since he did not qualify for the IGS or the Italy Star (there is a photo of his medal group in Bate & Smith). However, there was a second person who received 3 MMs in WWII and that is CSM F L Dixon of The Essex Scottish, a Canadian regiment. The only problem with him is that this regiment does not appear to have served in North Africa or Italy since they were decimated at Dieppe (where he won his MM) and then landed in Normandy in July 44 (after which he won the two bars).

Quite apart from the fact that he doesn't have a Canadian Volunteer Service Medal ribbon.

[Paul L Murphy]

Exactly.

My next step is to go through Bate & Smith and see if it could be a combination of WWII and post war awards of the MM. They say there were only 2 double bar awards in WWII and do not mention any double bar awards subsequently. It is a thin hope but maybe they did not call it a 2nd bar unless it was awarded for the same conflict as the previous awards, ie. maybe a post war MM or a post war first bar is actually the second bar to the recipient. I'm not explaining this well but I'm sure you know what I mean.

I will trawl through their listings and see if I can find a match using this logic. If not, then I will see if it makes sense for DCM and MM plus single bar combinations. Perhaps the wearer decided to add a rosette for his first award and a rosette for his bar (sound of Murphy clutching at straws !).

[Ed_Haynes]

Abbot and Tamplin show no post-WWII MM** awards and, as I recall, only a single MM*. They based their work on a page-by-page readthrough of the London Gazette. That's the kind of careful work that few would even consider these days!

[Michael Johnson]

Could one of the awards be for the Northwest Frontier, since he has an IGS 1908-35?

[Ed_Haynes]

Could one of the awards be for the Northwest Frontier, since he has an IGS 1908-35?

That is certainly possible. But the key is that second MM bar (which I think we can pretty much rule out as other that a Walter-Mittyism) or, more likely, first bar. There were only two of these MM** post-WWI and I think we can rule both of these chaps out? And paired with a DCM (or is it a ISO?)?? Abbot and Tamplin show 177 MM* for WWII and eight post-war (through 1979 -- I checked A&T and found my memory faulty -- no surprise here). I sense the accelerating approach of a brick wall . . .

[Paul L Murphy]

The only consolation is that once you bang your head against a brick wall enough times it actually starts to feel comfortable. A nice deadening drowsy sort of feeling ...............

[Ardent]

Just a thought but I notice there's a 62 CSM in the group - could the "mysteriously untraceable" bar be a NI gallentry award? I know (from personal experience) that many of these awards were not Gazetted for the security of the person and operational requirements

[Daniel Murphy]

I sure hope you nail this guy down. It reminds me of a group of items (no medals ) I have belonging to Naval Lt. Walter Kilroy Harris. He received the DSO and MC with 2 bars in WW1 while serving with Drake Battalion, 63rd (Royal Naval) Division.

Dan

[Jacky]

After so many chittychatty,

I'm wondering too, however my experience are nearly zero....

But.. Could you post the picture of the medalbar??

Kind regards,

Jacky

[Paul L Murphy]

Unfortunately I cannot post a picture since I embedded it into a word document and deleted the source image. If anyone know how to save an embedded image from a word document as a normal image then send me a pm telling me how and I will then post it !

[Paul L Murphy]

Well folks, I finally managed to dig this ribbon group out of the bank vault and take some more photos. Unfortunately I am no closer to identifying the recipient. Now that you can get a good look at it, all suggestions gratefully received.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Paul - did this come from the same source as the other bars ? Stitching looks very similar ?

[Paul L Murphy]

Mervyn,

Yes it did. I have commented more fully on them in the other thread.

Regards,

Paul

[Hardinge]

There was just 4Nr 1st bars issued between the wars and these were all to WW1 MMs.

There were 181Nr 1st bars and just 2Nr 2nd bars awarded during WW2 (However I only know of 1 and that is to Kite whose medals are in the tank museum and do not reflect these ribbons.

There were just 8Nr 1st bars awarded post WW2 to the present day.

Only 98 DCM/MMs for WW2 of which just 2 are DCM MM & Bar

R Chambers RNF

W Lumsden SG (KIA 06/03/45)

Neither received a third MM in WW2 or post WW2 or the QPM.

There is just 1 QPM MM & Bar, L O'Donnell IG, but he did not receive the DCM or a third MM.

There are no post WW2 2nd bars to any MM previously awarded.

I thought it may have been Chambers incorrectly wearing two rosettes, ie one for each MM, an easy mistake, but I am more inclined to believe it is a fanciful fabrication !

[Mervyn Mitton]

Some good observations. I am sure Paul will reply directly to your thread. Meanwhile, welcome to GMIC. Mervyn