Soviet Hierarchy of Soviet Awards?

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Andrei,

So maybe the system of hierarchy was still "under construction". The first Suvorov award took place at the end of December 1942, just two months before Vladimirov got his Nevsky. I mean that all those "polkovodets" awards were pretty new for everyone at the beginning of 1943.

Brilliant theory - many thanks .

Best regards

Christian

[Guest RedThreat]

Bojchuk's Nevsky

Comrade Bojchuk wears a Nevsky T 1.

Comrade Bojchuk promoted to Division Commander on January 1944.

Conclusion: Comrade Bojchuk received his Nevsky T 1 long time before he got Division Commander.

Christian,

Andrei wrote that Boychuk was a Div Com. in 1944, not that he became Div Com. in 1944.

Andrei,

If we are to believe the file http://www.soldat.ru/files/f/00000105.xls , Boychuk commanded 7th AA D 1942-1945.

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Simon,

you are right: The excel-file says, that he had been Div. Com. the whole (1942 - 45) period .

Sorry, I didn't check the file before .

So it might have been a rather early Nevsky, as Andrei notes when the "system was still under construction".

My humble opinion: There are some Nevsky T 1 receipients at the level of a Division Commander, but there might be no Nevsky T 3 receipients at that level.

Gentlemen, what is your opinion about that?

Best regards

Christian

Christian,

Andrei wrote that Boychuk was a Div Com. in 1944, not that he became Div Com. in 1944.

Andrei,

If we are to believe the file http://www.soldat.ru/files/f/00000105.xls , Boychuk commanded 7th AA D 1942-1945.

[Mondvor]

Andrei,

If we are to believe the file http://www.soldat.ru/files/f/00000105.xls , Boychuk commanded 7th AA D 1942-1945.

Well, I think we should believe this information because those guys from www.soldat.ru are very good in everything connected with military units, formations and commanders of those units. So we can assume that he was a division commander.

About the Type 1 Nevsky - I've seen the cases when this early type was awarded in 1945. For example comrade Volkov was awarded with Nevsky 1532 by the Commander of Artillery of 6th Guards Tank Army on January 31, 1945. And I know two more cases.

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Andrei,

that is an interesting aspect, because officially it was noted, that all Nevsky T 2 are mint-converted Nevsky T 1 and only the Nevsky T 3 had been a genuine screwback order.

It seems, that there had been still some stocks somewhere of non-converted Nevsky T 1.

Best regards

Christian

Well, I think we should believe this information because those guys from www.soldat.ru are very good in everything connected with military units, formations and commanders of those units. So we can assume that he was a division commander.

About the Type 1 Nevsky - I've seen the cases when this early type was awarded in 1945. For example comrade Volkov was awarded with Nevsky 1532 by the Commander of Artillery of 6th Guards Tank Army on January 31, 1945. And I know two more cases.

[Mondvor]

Dear Andrei,

that is an interesting aspect, because officially it was noted, that all Nevsky T 2 are mint-converted Nevsky T 1 and only the Nevsky T 3 had been a genuine screwback order.

It seems, that there had been still some stocks somewhere of non-converted Nevsky T 1.

Best regards

Christian

You are absolutely right. All Type 2 Nevsky orders are converted from Type 1 by Krasnokamsk Mint. However, many Type 1 orders have been sent to Fronts and Armies and they were not withdrawn for a convertion. So they were issued in their original shape after July 1943 even though they were not matched with existing regulations.

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Andrei,

where is Krasnokamsk located in the Soviet Union? Was it the mint during the GPW?

Coming back to the original subject of the thread, Andrei, what do you assume might had been the inoffical hierachy of Soviet Military Awards in the year 1945 in common Red Army units (not airforce, navy, naval infantry, etc.)?

For soldiers & NCOs: Glory ranking above Red Star?

For officers: Suvorov 3cl ranking above Red Banner?

.............................

Many thanks for your expertise in advance .

Best regards

Christian

[Mondvor]

Dear Andrei,

where is Krasnokamsk located in the Soviet Union? Was it the mint during the GPW?

Coming back to the original subject of the thread, Andrei, what do you assume might had been the inoffical hierachy of Soviet Military Awards in the year 1945 in common Red Army units (not airforce, navy, naval infantry, etc.)?

For soldiers & NCOs: Glory ranking above Red Star?

For officers: Suvorov 3cl ranking above Red Banner?

.............................

Many thanks for your expertise in advance .

Best regards

Christian

Krasnokamsk Mint was located near Ural mountains in the Perm oblast. So it is near the junction of Europe and Asia. On late 1941 Moscov Mint evacuated deep into Soviet territory and reestablished as a Krasnokamsk Mint. It provided 90 percent of all war time awards - Red Banners, Red Stars, all "polkovodets" awards including Nevsky, major part of GPWs, Glories and other...

About hierarchy it is hard question. I think that "long-service awards" regulations dramatically changed the values of Red Banner and Red Star. So in 1945 it might be that Glory had bigger value than Red Star and Suvorov was more "cool" than Red Banner. But in my opinion before November 1944 situation was different. Red Star was more desirable award for soldiers than Glory and Red Banner was more desirable for officers than Suvorov 3rd class. Just my opinion...

[Christian Zulus]

Glory vs. Red Star

Dear Andrei,

many thanks for your informations about Krasnokamsk Mint .

About hierarchy it is hard question. I think that "long-service awards" regulations dramatically changed the values of Red Banner and Red Star. So in 1945 it might be that Glory had bigger value than Red Star and Suvorov was more "cool" than Red Banner. But in my opinion before November 1944 situation was different. Red Star was more desirable award for soldiers than Glory and Red Banner was more desirable for officers than Suvorov 3rd class. Just my opinion...

Good arguments and there had been also a certain "inflation" of awards to the end of the GPW.

The "Long-Service-Regulations" of 11/1944 had been a heavy burden for those two orders (15 & 20 years of service). In 1942/43 - i.e.: Battle of Stalingrad - the Red Star was a highly esteemed decoration.

In the aspect "Glory vs. Red Star" the main points in my humble opinion for the inofficial "superiority" of the Glory (besides 11/1944) are:

- regulations strictly linked to heroism in the line of fire

- regulations at the same level as the OGPW

- perspective to promote to a "Full Cavalier of the Order of Glory" with ident HSU-privileges

Also without 11/1944 the Glory would have been the more prestigeous and more wanted order for the rank and file soldier, I think.

What is your opinion to my arguements ?

Best regards

Christian

[Guest RedThreat]

Andrei,

Thank you for the information about Krasnokamsk mint and early Nevsky issued in 1945.

Christian,

It's fine.

Please allow me to share my thoughts on RS vs. Glory prestige among privates in 1945. During and a few years after the war, veterans were paid monthly for each order and medal. I don't know the exact amount but I suspect RS recipient got more $ since this order was officially higher ranked. Also, though RS was devalued for officers having become a long service award, the situation was different for lower ranks. None of the privates and a few NCO's served for 15 years and thus qualifed for RS. Lower ranks still had to earn RS. Furthermore, I am almost sure that a full Glory cavalier became equivalent to and qualified for benefits of HSU only in the 1950's. ( During the war, Glory 1 recipient was promoted and got to be called a full cavalier of Glory but didn't get HSU material and moral benefits. ) I agree with your point regarding Glory being a pure combat award. As a collector, I like Glory for this reason. Ideas in this paragraph are only meant to be additional variables in our exercise.

You mentioned earlier that several parallel official prestige systems existed. I agree. For example, Zhukov and Vasilevsky got Suvorov 1 for Stalingrad operation. If we follow statutes strictly, we can conclude that they got cheated. Suvorov is officially ranked lower than RB, Lenin or HSU. Could a general do anything greater than to surround Paulus's Army? IMHO, Zhukov and Vasilevsky getting platinum Suvorovs rather than silver RB or gold HSU for a tide turning battle was a message of this order's high status that was propagated by the government.

Cheers,

Simon

Edited November 6, 2006 by RedThreat

[Christian Zulus]

Monthly payments for Military Awards in the SU

Dear Simon,

many thanks for your commentaries

During and a few years after the war, veterans were paid monthly for each order and medal. I don't know the exact amount but I suspect RS recipient got more $ since this order was officially higher ranked.

I assume, that is absolutly true. The extra payment for awards was stopped I think in 1947/48 due to the costs of economic reconstruction, military cost for the "Cold War", etc. I don't have the monthly payment for the RS, but for the Glory and the medals (in rubles):

Glory 3cl: 5,- / p.m.

Glory 2cl: 10,- / p.m.

Glory 1cl: 15,- / p.m.

Full Cavalier = 30,- / p.m.

Medal for Military Merit: 10,- / p.m.

Medal for Valour: 15,- / p.m.

I guess, that the Red Star might have earned 20,- / p.m. , but maybe Andrei knows more about the subject and the monthly payments for the other orders.

There had been changes in the regulations for HSU, HSL & Glory-Cav. in 1967 and 1975 (including Labour Glory & Motherland ????) concerning the benefits.

Yeltsin signed at the 15th of jan. 1993 a law of the Russian Federation concerning the benefits for Soviet HSU, HSL & Glory-Cav., but holders of 3 Labour Glory & 3 Motherland are NOT included amon the beneficiaries! In january 1993 Russian newspapers noted, that ca. 700 Full Cavaliers of the Order of Glory were still living.

So for a well decorated NCO - ORB, OPW, RS, Glory, Medals, etc. - it was possible - just after the war - to achieve a 50 % + to his monthly income from the Red Army, due to his awards.

Coming back to the discussion Glory vs. RS:

I forgot to mention one additional crucial point concerning the special prestige of the Glory among privates and NCO: The enormous propaganda Soviet authorities made around the (new) Order of Glory! There are a lot of posters showing soldiers with their Glory, as you can see at the sleeve of the red PMD-bible. All monuments for Soviet Soldiers show the Glory and if they show only one award (like here in Vienna at Schwarzenbergplatz), they show a Glory 3cl. As I pointed out some postings back in this thread, it was Stalin's personal initiative to create the Order of Glory and he invented the name "Glory".

O.K., the soldiers "earned" less monthly extra-payment for an Glory in comparison to an RS and the official rank was lower, but there had been so much official fuss about this new award, that I assume the inofficial rank in the hierarchy of the Glory was among privates and NCOs - in the year 1945! - superior to the RS. Also the regulations of the Glory were definitly more ambitious, than these of the RS. Glory-regulations are at the same specific level as the regulations for the OPW! My feelings in that topic.

Best regards

Christian

Here is a photograph of the monument for the Red Army in the centre of Vienna, which shows only a Glory 3c:

[attachmentid=59879]

Edited November 6, 2006 by Christian Zulus

[Mondvor]

Glory vs. Red Star

Dear Andrei,

many thanks for your informations about Krasnokamsk Mint .

Good arguments and there had been also a certain "inflation" of awards to the end of the GPW.

The "Long-Service-Regulations" of 11/1944 had been a heavy burden for those two orders (15 & 20 years of service). In 1942/43 - i.e.: Battle of Stalingrad - the Red Star was a highly esteemed decoration.

In the aspect "Glory vs. Red Star" the main points in my humble opinion for the inofficial "superiority" of the Glory (besides 11/1944) are:

- regulations strictly linked to heroism in the line of fire

- regulations at the same level as the OGPW

- perspective to promote to a "Full Cavalier of the Order of Glory" with ident HSU-privileges

Also without 11/1944 the Glory would have been the more prestigeous and more wanted order for the rank and file soldier, I think.

What is your opinion to my arguements ?

Best regards

Christian

Christian, of course I deeply respect your opinion, but still believe that Red Star was more valuable for a soldiers than Glory. Even though Red Star lost many points after November 1944 Ukaz, it still remained mostly "officer" award. Of course thousands of privates and NSOs awarded with Red Star during GPW, but it was a small percent comparing to the number of officers awarded with it. Most soldiers finished the war with medals only, less were decorated with Glory and much less were decorated with Red Star. If we go further, the next award in "rarity" rating would be GPW 2nd class followed by 1st class.

So for many soldiers the fact of receiving kind of "officer" award was a big event. Glory... Well, of course nowadays it is highly respected award surrouded with heroic spirit. But this legend of "most respected" award was built constantly after the war.

First of all, the privileges for full-cavaliers of Glory were established many years after the war ended. And those booklets for full cavaliers appeared the same time. In 1945 there was no outstanding privileges for them. By the way, same set of benefits provided for Labor Glory cavaliers, but I don't think that Labor Glory 3rd class has more value than Red Banner of Labor or Badge of Honor.

Also we don't have to mix SINGLE order of Glory with FULL SET of Glory. I believe that original question was about single 3rd class versus Red Star, right? Of course set of three Glories would easily outweight Red Star.

About detailed description of merits (same as for GPW) I have my own opinion. I think that was made to divide soldiers from officers in their awards. For example a soldier shot down enemy plane using his personal weapon. He can be awarded with GPW 2nd class, right? It has this merit in the list. But ironically same thing mentioned in Glory list. So the soldier most likely would get Glory and the officer for the same event would get GPW. Stalin invented order of Glory to make a gap between soldiers and officers. I don't know if there was an award "for soldiers only" in German army or US Army.

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Andrei,

a few posting ago, you noted:

So in 1945 it might be that Glory had bigger value than Red Star ... Just my opinion...

Now you noted, that the RS had bigger value . I wanted to discuss the situation in 1945.

The establishing of the Order of Glory had a clear political function: Motivation for the grass root soldiers - privates & NCOs - at the victorious end-phase of the GPW. So Stalin & Co. invented a special order for the comrades in the line of fire and made a hughe propaganda-fuss about the Glory. Due to these facts it is my humble opinion, that the Glory had in 1945 more prestige, than the RS. I know from the memoir literature how esteemed a RS had been during the Battle of Stalingrad or other battles till mid 1944.

That is true: The Germans had no special award like the Glory, but the great bulk of the highly prestigious RKs went to low-ranking field officers, NCOs and also privates.

Andrei, do you know how big the extra monthly payment was for a RS, OPW 2cl & 1cl, ORB, Lenin, etc.?

Do you also know, when Stalin began with these payments and when he stopped these payments?

Many thanks for your expertise in advance .

Best regards

Christian

[Mondvor]

Christian, in my early post I said "it might be". It was my assumption about how soldiers might feel towards the value of Red Star vs Glory. In my late post I expressed my own opinion. If I was a soldier in 1945 and my commander gave me a choise of either Red Star or Glory, I would choose Red Star. Since I'm not an officer, but just a private (or sergeant), so everyone who will see Red Star on my soldier's uniform would understant that this is NOT long-service award, but real combat order.

I think that we are wasting time here. There is no "universal" solution for this problem. Some soldiers considered Red Star higher than Glory, some thought in a different way. That was very personal and varied from one man to another. I don't want to discuss it furthermore, because there is no clear answer.

About the payments - they started in according with "Postanovlenie (Ukaz) of Central Executive Commetee" from May 7, 1936. Those payments were canceled in according with Ukaz of Supreme Soviet Presidium from September 10, 1947 (Effective date starts from January 1, 1948).

For Lenin it was 25 roubles per month, Red Banner and GPW 1st class - 20, Red Banner of Labor, Red Star and GPW 2nd class - 15, Badge of Honor - 10, For Valor, Ushakov and Valiant Labor medals - 10, Military Merit, Nahimov and Distinguished Labor medals - 5.

[Guest RedThreat]

Glory vs. For Bravery in a penal company

I hope you will find this unofficial hierarchy example interesting. Col. Piltsin, who commanded a penal company during the war, in his book Penalty Kick described instances when demoted officers under his command were awarded Glory 3. They didn't like it because they would have a hard time answering nosy questions, "Why do you have Glory? You are an officer.", after they completed their term in the penal unit and got reinstated in their rank. On the contrary, For Bravery medal in a penal company was welcomed. If somebody asked "What did you get this medal for?", an officer would reply, "Read the inscription on the medal!"

[Gerd Becker]

I don't know if there was an award "for soldiers only" in German army or US Army.

As far as i know, there was nothing like a "soldiers only award" in the german army in WW2. There were different grades of orders for specific ranks in WW 1, when the several duchies awarded their own orders and medals, but in WW2 an award was not connected with a rank, at least not in the soviet way.

Fascinating discussion, gents

Edited November 7, 2006 by Gerd Becker

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Andrei,

many thanks for the datas of the payments .

About the payments - they started in according with "Postanovlenie (Ukaz) of Central Executive Commetee" from May 7, 1936. Those payments were canceled in according with Ukaz of Supreme Soviet Presidium from September 10, 1947 (Effective date starts from January 1, 1948).

For Lenin it was 25 roubles per month, Red Banner and GPW 1st class - 20, Red Banner of Labor, Red Star and GPW 2nd class - 15, Badge of Honor - 10, For Valor, Ushakov and Valiant Labor medals - 10, Military Merit, Nahimov and Distinguished Labor medals - 5

Are my quotings for the Glory - 5,-, 10,- & 15,- - correct?

Do you have datas of the other - Nevsky, Suvorov, etc. - orders?

Many thanks for your expertise .

Best regards

Christian

P.S.: I won't bother you anymore with the Glory vs. RS topic . It can easily slide into a historical-political discussion and leave the phaleristic field .

[Mondvor]

Hi Christian,

Here is a page from official book about awards regulations. You can see that you were right about the Glory orders. Also at the bottom it says that there is no money payments for "polkovodets" awards.

[Christian Zulus]

Monthly payment hierarchy of Soviet Awards

Andrei,

many thanks for posting that important document

It is very, very interesting, that they got NO extra payments for "polkovodets" awards .

My theory about that fact: Maybe Stalin & Co. thought, that a general or even an officer earn already enough money per month, so they should not gain extra profits for their Suvorovs, Kutuzovs, etc.

As far as I can remember from the memoirs literature the sallery of a higher ranking officer or general (+ all the privileges!) had been several times higher, than from an private or NCO.

At least our thread - due to your phaleristic investigations - found a "extra" hierarchy of Soviet Awards concerning the monthly extra payments (1936 - 1947) .

So let us take the fictional case of a Lt.-Col. of the Red Army in 1945 who received 1 Lenin, 4 ORBs, 2 OPW 1cl + for long service: RS & Medal Milit. Merit. So this comrade would have got an extra payment per month of rubles 165,-. Gentlemen, that had been a lot of money in 1945 - almost the basic sallery of a factory worker!

So from the cash-viewpoint a ORB hat a bigger value, than a Suvorov for the officer.

Andrei, do you know when the (hughe) extra privileges for HSU, HSL & Glory-Cavalier had been introduced? After 1947?

There were also some privileges for veterans showing their awards - i.e.: no queue in front of shops. Do you have more informations about this aspect?

Many thanks for your expertise in advance .

Best regards

Christian

[order_of_victory]

Christian,

Heres an exaple of the cupon book , Unfortunatly I dont know what medal it relates to

Order of Victory

[Mondvor]

Monthly payment hierarchy of Soviet Awards

Andrei, do you know when the (hughe) extra privileges for HSU, HSL & Glory-Cavalier had been introduced? After 1947?

There were also some privileges for veterans showing their awards - i.e.: no queue in front of shops. Do you have more informations about this aspect?

Many thanks for your expertise in advance .

Best regards

Christian

Hi Christian,

It is a hard question, because privileges for HSU, HSL and others changed many times during Soviet history. But most likely you are interested in two major changes.

First took place in according with the Ukaz from September 6, 1967 (dedicated to 50th anniversary of October Revolution). This Ukaz made full cavaliers of Glory equal to HSU and HSL in their privileges. This Ukaz gave HSU, HSL and full Glory cavaliers the right to have personal increased pensions (after-retirement money payments), several benefits for receiving own appartments from the government and others.

Second Ukaz was issued on April 30, 1975 (dedicated to 30 years of Victory). This was the one that canceled queues in front of shops for HSU and others. Actually in many cities special shops for veterans vere opened. You can show your special ID and once a month get many goods (mostly food) that were unavailable in a regular stores. Also this Ukaz gave the right to free use of public transportation, annual trip to sanatorium and others.

[Mondvor]

Christian,

Heres an exaple of the cupon book , Unfortunatly I dont know what medal it relates to

Order of Victory

Nice coupon book for the medal

Here is same amount of money (5 roubles) coupon book for the order. Glory 3rd class probably... Orderbook coupons are bluish in color while medalbook coupons are reddish.

I have pictures of other coupons with different payment amounts. Let me know if you are interested and I'll place them here.

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Andrei,

many thanks for your expertise .

So the special privileges for HSU, HSL & Glory-Cavaliers started (rather late) in 1967?

Between 1948 and sept. 1967 they got nothing at all in rubles?

Till the end of 1947 HSU & HSL received 25,- / p.m. (for their Lenin) and the Glory-Cavaliers 30,- for their 3 Orders of Glory (5,- + 10,- + 15,-)?

Andrei, it would be great, if you could post some scans of coupon booklets here . I have never seen one. Please scan the complete booklet - cover, pages, etc. - many thanks!

Another question: Guard Units in the Red Army got 100 % + in their monthly payments. Also 100 % + for their awards? When did the double payment for Guard Units stopp in the Soviet Union - also end of 1947?

Best regards

Christian

[Gerd Becker]

Ukaz gave HSU, HSL and full Glory cavaliers the right to have personal increased pensions (after-retirement money payments), several benefits for receiving own appartments from the government and others.

Andrey, how was it actually handled with the appartments? Did they have contingents of appartments, which they gave to HSU/HSL/Glory CVL, when they received their award or moved later after they got it?

Thanks

Gerd

[Mondvor]

Andrey, how was it actually handled with the appartments? Did they have contingents of appartments, which they gave to HSU/HSL/Glory CVL, when they received their award or moved later after they got it?

Thanks

Gerd

In 1960th and 1970th there was very difficult situation with appartments in big cities. Many families were waiting in lines (queues) for years to receive separate appartment. Of course they were waiting not in actual queues, but in some sorts of waiting lists. And if your number was, lets say, 234 it was no chance for you to get an appartment in next 5 or 6 years. But for HSU and others some exceptions were made. They were able to receive an appartment without waiting, as soon as a new house was built. So their families were happy. And it was true for the cars as well. Automobile industry in former USSR was weak and in 70th and early 80th people waiting long time to buy a new car. For war heroes it was easier.

Edited November 9, 2006 by Mondvor