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Stogieman

Finnish Awards To Germans In WW1

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Rick, no limitations with the wear of bars. Only one name was was supposed to be engraved to one bar (and that sentence in it's weird finnish form might have led to the confusion of only one bar to be worn). The rose indeed meant that the medal was given as an "award" more than a commemorative medal. I'm not sure what was the criteria for that, but statues said that the recipient must have not received any actual awards of the order of cross of liberty during the war. In the the order of predence the 1918 commemorative medal with rose ranked below the medal of liberty 2nd class but before the medals of the order of the white rose of finland with clasps.

Pete

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beer.gif Can muddle along in Swedish but Finnish is beyond me. The award document for the 1918 Sporrong made "rose" medal above,

[attachmentid=9256]

is dated 15 May 1933, says "with silver rose" but does not actually specify WHICH bar unless that is the annotation at top of the huge document.

[attachmentid=9257]

I guess those were up to the recipient to private purchase-- hence the variations encountered. Too bad only Sinisalo's first initial "V" was written in, or I'd perhaps have been able to tell which of many local immigrants of that name and same initial he was. sad.gif

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As stated, the first issue of medals began after the institution of 10.9.1918. The Documents didn't accompany the medals until 1.7.1919. before that that the medals were issued without the document. The applications were prepared and presented by the Office of Awards of the War Ministry. The Dead-line for applications was 1.11.1919. During this "actual issuing" some 90 000 medals were handed out.

The first issue of the medal in 1919-1920 didn't work out quite as well as it was planned. The news about the medal did not reach all those who were eligible, especially in the remote areas of the country (not to mention those who had alrady left the country). And many of those who knew about the medal, simply might have just forgotten about it. Also, some application lists came after the dead-line. When the first 5- and 10-year anniversaries and re-unions of the war came, many old soldiers were sad to see that they had been left without this "Mannerheim's chest-money" (as it was nick-named) their comrades had. So, when the applications for the medal started to be close to 1000 in 1932, it was decided to continue the issuing.

In 1932 the second issue was ordered. in addition to the 1919-1932 applications, the date 1.6.1933 was set as an dead-line for the new ones. Now the applications were to be sent to the war-archives, and the issuing was to follow the 1919 statutes, with the exception that the medal was no longer to be issued with the heraldic rose.

After this, there was still people who were entitled to the medal, but didn't have it. So, in 1936 it was decided to still continue the issuing, the dead-line now being 21.12.1937. This was probably influenced by the coming 20th anniversary of the war. Even after this, in the years 1958-1966, the liberation war commemorative medals were handed out. During this "continued issuing" some 10 000 medals were given, most of them during 1933-1938.

So, an interesting point regarding your document.. as the statutes said, no rose for the 32-33 issues, but this one clearly was issued with rose! ..maybe the recipient was one of those who were given the medal with rose in 1919, but who never got it before 1933. Even more so, if he was an immigrant. As the Finnish War Archives have all the applications for the medal, your recipient might be identified by them, also to which bar he was entitled to and why.

I'm bad at interpreting that scribble, but it says "(something) annettu 15/5.33"

where "annettu" means "given". I have to dig up some books from storage to see, if they say anything more about how the bars were to be purchased.

btw. the document is signed by Kustaa Mannerheim, "Kustaa" being a finnish form of swedish "Gustaf". This was done to please the finnish-speaking majority, and to bring the "swedish-speaking russian general" more close to the common Finnish soldier.

Pete

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TERRIFIC information! beer.gif Aside from the horrors of Finnish grammar (surely their First Defense against invasion ohmy.gifohmy.gifohmy.gif ) the childlike overly roundy roundy round calligraphy without much "up" or "down" stroking also baffles me.

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Dear forumites:

I would like to add some Imperial German medal bars with finnish Orders and medals to this very interesting thread.

Medal bar of Konteradmirals Johannes Jantzen

Medals:

? Eisernes Kreuz 1914, 2.Klasse (OEK 1909)

? Roter Adler Orden, 4. Klasse (OEK 1704)

? Hamburg, Hanseatenkreuz (OEK 688)

? Ehrenkreuz f?r Frontk?mpfer (OEK 3803), Hersteller N. & H.

? China Denkm?nze f?r K?mpfer (OEK 3150)

? Kolonial-Denkm?nze f?r Weisse, 1912 (OEK 3182)

? DA-Kreuz f?r 25 Jahre der Offz., 3.Mod., 1.Typ (OEK 1970)

? Finnland, Freiheitskreuz Orden 1918, mit Schwertern

? Finnland, Erinnerungsmedaille an den Befreiungskrieg, 1918

Research, by Rick Lundstr?m:

Johannes aka Hans Jantzen

Birth date: July 8th,1880

Navy service: 12.04.1898-07.11.1919

Lt zS 1901

Oberlt zS 11.4.03 A

Kaptlt zS 30.3.08 Z

KorvKapt zS 17.10.15 L

still that in 1939-- recalled for WW2

FregKapt zS zV

and that was it

China as a cadet, so I don't have ship

1905 on SMS Brandenburg

1908 Captain of torpedoboat "S114" in the 2nd Maneuver Flotilla AND attached to 2nd Torpedo Division

November 1909 commanded River Gunboat "Vaterland" in China

December 1910 commanded River Gunboat "Otter" in China

WW1 First Officer SMS Berlin to July 1916

Navigation Officer SMS Westfalen to June 1918

First Officer SMS Ostfriesland in Baltic to end of war

In 1928, 1931, and 1935 Naval Officer Association (MOV) directories he is listed as living in Hamburg and Hamburg-Altona as owner of export company "Firma Johannes P. F. Jantzen" Doesn't say WHAT he exported.

In 1937 still at Moltkestra?e 3, Altona (telephone 4240 60 if you want to call the past), but no occupation listed.

In 1939 same address, listed as employed at the Wehrersatz Inspektion Schleswig-Holstein, but as KKaD.

He married after 1.1.14. he also had a Russian St. Anna Order 3 which he has chosen not to wear any more... it would certainly have looked funny next to the Finns!!

1939 is the last I have for him, but he is in that WW2 Kriegsmarine officer assignments book that some of the guys have-- ask Glenn to look him up.

Obviously his colonial was after China, and often medal bars have no campaign ?Spangen? (I suspect they were not made for replacements), so no help there. I have too many gaps in what I have to narrow down where he got this. maybe East Africa 1905-07.

Date of death: 23.03.1945.

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A much simplier medal bar with predominantly medals of the 3rd Reich...

? Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse, 1914 (OEK 1909)

? Kriegsverdienskreuz 2. Klasse mit Schwertern, 1939 (OEK 3836)

? Ehrenkreuz f?r Frontk?mpfer (OEK 3803), Hersteller N. & H.

? Treudienst-Ehrenzeichen, 2. Stufe f?r 25 Jahre (OEK 3524)

? Deutsches Olympia-Ehrenzeichen, 1936, Erinnerungsmedaille (OEK 3573)

? Finnland, Erinnerungsmedaille an den Befreiungskrieg, 1918

Edited by Claudio

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Another example...

Medals:

? Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse, 1914 (OEK 1909)

? Hamburg, Hanseatenkreuz (OEK 688)

? Ehrenkreuz f?r Frontk?mpfer (OEK 3803), PSL

? Finnland, Orden des Freiheitskreuzes (1918), Kreuz 3. Kl. mit Schwertern

? Finnland, Erinnerungsmedaille an den Befreiungskrieg 1918, Sporrong & Co.

? Bulgarien, 1. WK Erinnerungsmedaille 1915-1918

Enjoy!

Edited by stogieman

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Very nice bars, Claudio! love.gif It's especially nice to see the ribbon bow in Jantzens VR2. Usually German bars seem to lack it, even though it was an essential part of the order, distinguishing an actual combat award. This custom came to Finland from Russia, where in 1857 a ribbon bow was added to distinguish the difference between those awards given for bravery and those given for military merits (with swords) during peace-time.

And while we are in russian awards, I don't think it would have been stange for Jantzen to wear his St. Anne next to Finnish awards, since many Finnish ex-imperial officers did so themselves. Most notably Marshall Mannerheim, who chose to wear his St. George 4th class right after his Finnish awards. See here and

here.

- Pete

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Post (and sometimes ongoing! Cat Scratch.gifspeechless1.gif ) hostilities wear of present or former enemy awards seems to have been a haphazard personal preference:

actively frowned upon if not outright banned during hostilities... and yet we find exceptions during BOTH wars. Imperial Prussia NEVER and explicitly did NOT ban wear of the Russian Saint George Order, for instance, assigning it precedence in advance of some native Prussian awards and ahead of other German decorations-- a legacy of 1813.

It all came down to personal preference, probably. After all, when a COUNTRY had ceased to exist, there were no "Official Occasions" upon which it was required TO wear their awards... as regulations up to 1914 required. Perhaps the wearer didn't highly value a gewgaw granted for not much beyond standing in a parade reviewing line, or resented personal loss at the hands of the former regime...

it is too late to ask any of the original wearers, now.

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True. And what comes to wearing the St. George, we have to remember that it was the highest bravery award of Russia. Even the Russian regulations required it to be worn all the time, and it was independent of all ranks of precedence. I guess once you had really earned something in the field of battle, you were more likely to keep it, unlike those novelty awards given for lounge-lizarding and for just-being-in-the-right-place-at-the-right-time, that could be dumped whenever few empires happened to collapse.

Anyway, to bring this thread back on track, I happened to stumble upon a picture (a bad scan, i know.. let's see if this attachment-thing even works) of certain Leutnant a.D. Otto Kunkel of S?chsiche Karabinier-Regiment, who is wearing two bars (most likely, and correctly, Etel?-Suomi & Lemp??l?-Lahti) on his Liberation War commemorative medal. As the Picture is scanned from his article in the 1938 book "Die Einnahme von Helsinki-Helsingfors 12.4.1918", he probably got the commemorative medal of Conquest of Helsinki too, to spice up his already quite impressive rack of medals.

[attachmentid=10626]

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Very interesting observations, Pete! Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Rick, you know that I have a been gone insane for German medal bars with Finnish awards.

On Winkler website https://www.nordheideversand.de/ (22136 AUSWEISE, PAPIERE und gro?e ORDENSSPANGE des OLYMPIATEILNEHMERS (WINTERSPIELE) Oberleutnant der Gebirgsj?ger Hans Roschmann) there is a complete group of an officer of the Gebirsgj?ger with the most strange medal bar I have ever seen... WWII medals, Olympia Ehrenzeichen and a post-WWII American medal!!! I guess that this medal bar was just put together recently... nevertheless I'm posting the picture... the Finnish awards they look pretty good.

Ciao,

Claudio

P.S.: I know... it's not WWI, but I guessed here I would get more attention...

Edited by Claudio

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Kunkel must have been a Leutnant aD former career NCO from his awards. I don't find him in the list of Saxon Honor Cross with Xs recipients, which means gaps in THAT one from 1918, too. sad.gif The naughty man is incorrectly wearing both his XV and XII Saxon long service decorations, apparently.

Claudio: cheeky.gif I just LOVE the swastika'd awards-- including an Olympic Decoration 2nd Class (NOT given to athletes) worn with a U.S. Army Commendation Medal! cheeky.gif

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Claudio: Now, that has to be one of the most bizarre combinations around. I bet it hasn't seen a lot of wear inside the US borders, though. laugh.gif

Rick: Yes, it appears so, since the Saxon Karabiniers was one of those regiments where almost all officers almost certrainly got some sort of a cross of liberty, and he doesn't seem to have one. They did perform quite well, but also took some severe beating, so perhaps there was a need for promotions.

btw, can you give more information about your von Bernstorff bar?

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G. (I only have the initial so far) Graf von Bernstorff was born circa 1887/8 and served in Oldenburg Dragoner Regiment 19:

Leutnant 16.8.07 vorpatentiert

Oberleutnant 27.1.15

Rittmeister 25.11.16

and aD as that BUT

Finnish Major (Majurri) commanding the Finnish 2nd J?ger Regiment (II. J??k?ri Rykmenti) at Tamper/Tammerfors 28.3.-6.4.18.

Obtained for wat was THEN a decent amount cheeky.gif in March 1991 from Jeff Floyd, from the former collection of the late Colonel C.M. Dodkins, DSO, OBE-- who picked it up in 1964 and glued the auction description and his own tags on the backing. speechless.gif

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Some posts seem to have disappeared, but I vaguely recall there was some question about the award rolls?

All the awards of the order of the cross of liberty were mentioned in headquarter's orders-of-the-day. These orders-of-the-day can be found in the Finnish War Archives. According to these, Germans (both soldiers and civilians) received 1 239 crosses and 2 266 medals (as per request, no exact numbers/class mentioned). As the actual awards weren't ready yet, every recipient (no matter what nationality) was issued a piece of MOL2 ribbon, which was to be worn on the buttonhole, EK2 style, to show that a person had received an award of the order.(This actually explains why, in German groups, COLs are sometimes found mounted in MOL2 ribbon. For the recipients it was the "original" ribbon) When the awards finally started to arrive from the manufacturers, the officers were usually the first ones to get them, and most Germans seem to have gotten their COLs during the fall of 1918.

BUT, when the Ostseedivision left Finland in November 1918, they took 489 crosses and 13 310 medals (!!) with them. This amount exceeded the strenght of the Division greatly. And even if you count in the Detachement Brandenstein and Sonderverband ser Ostsee, which had left Finland right after the war was over, and didn't thus have the chance to receive their medals, this would still mean that every German who took part in the Finnish campaign would have received some sort of an award of the order. Because these extra medals, the Finnish representatives in Berlin reported already in 1918/1919, that it is impossible to provide an accurate list of all those Germans who have received an award of the order.

Given the fact that the bar has the commorative medal, the recipient must have taken part in the actual fighting? (even though there are exceptions). I could give you a list of the German officers in Finland, if it helps anything?

Pete

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Yes, we had a website glitch updating software that lost half a day's posts. :blush:

You have a COMPLETE :speechless1: list of German officers there in 1918? :jumping:

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You have a COMPLETE :speechless1: list of German officers there in 1918? :jumping:

Unfortunately, not complete. But I do have the basic structure down to the company commanders and commanders of the smaller independent units. In addition to this, names of some lower-rank officers whom are collected from various books. Out of 500 army officers I have some 200. And from the navy, around 130 names. Also I have the complete list of all the Germans who died in Finland in 1918. It's going to take a couple of night of translating though, since the lists are in finnish :o ..and I have no idea what some naval or beamten (or worse yet, naval beamten) ranks would be in german, since even some of their finnish equivalents are nowdays obsolete. But give me couple of days and I'll see what I can come up to.

Pete

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That would be GREAT!

Start a new thread and don't worry about translating any weird rank titles-- that is the kind of thing that can always be editted later. Quite a few went on to interesting WW2 careers-- like the unlucky Luftwaffe General Stahel-- so THAT would turn out to be a MONSTER special topic with all sorts of biographical material added.

:beer::jumping::jumping::jumping: Rick

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That would be GREAT!

Start a new thread and don't worry about translating any weird rank titles-- that is the kind of thing that can always be editted later. Quite a few went on to interesting WW2 careers-- like the unlucky Luftwaffe General Stahel-- so THAT would turn out to be a MONSTER special topic with all sorts of biographical material added.

All right. Good thing you mentioned Stahel, I would have otherwise forgotten those Germans who were outside the 'offical expeditionforce'. Not that there were many of them, but still. And all those who came after may 1918 to act as instructors for the new finnish army. Uhh, i'm starting think this wasn't such a good idea after all. :lol: Anyway, a new topic coming up.

Pete

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:cheeky::cheers:

Yes, my circa 1919 SWEDISH source (long forgotten, just made notes) jumbled Stahel, "Graf von Bernstorff" and "Graf von Hamilton" all together, Germans, Swedes, Finns, and usually dubious spellings.

This will be fun! I've seen your new thread and it looks quite promising. I should be able to fill in a lot of names and subsequent careers, and it will also be nice to see if we can eventually get awards noted there.

Why, it may soon take over this whole website! :speechless1::rolleyes::cheeky:

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Nice one, Rick! That's one brave NCO. I wonder if he really was awarded the both medals of liberty or did he just got the MoL1 and decided to stick that interim MoL2 ribbon to his bar too..

Pete

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Here it is....... can someone please post what the three Finnish Awards are on the end of this bar? Thanks!

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