Austria-Hungary 10 place "Austrian" medal bar

[saschaw]

I'd like to hear you gentlemen's opinion about this 10 place "Austrian" medal bar from Third Reich era, so in German style worn and with some very ugly swastika awards, my apologize for these.

The "Golden" TM is made from silver and has the little "A", and the French Knight of the Honour Legion is model from 1871-1945, if I remember correctly.

The bar is in my humble opinion NOT one of those coming up on Ebay recently as it has yet been for some years in my father's collection, and was purchased from another collector who had no Ebay at these days, as I remember.

That doesn't say for sure it has to be genuine, so I'd like to hear some opinions, as I got a fear to such big "monster bars" in the last months ...

Avers:

[saschaw]

Revers:

[saschaw]

And some close ups:

[saschaw]

And the "Frenchman":

Thanks in advance

[Ulsterman]

Unusual-

and my first impulse is to say "fake". There are lots of these style Austrian wunder-bars out there and they have been flowing into medal fairs since the mid 1990s (that I am aware of-probably even earlier).

The Wurtemberg medal is what does it for me. Also -what about the placement of the HKx?

The bar says " Austrian: brave, war volunteer, enlisted man"- with MAYBE some sort of technical capability (trains, motor transport, engineering, telephones, etc.). But there is no merit cross either. Did Wurtemberg give lower medals to foreigners?

The rest of the medals could easily have been earned by say, an Oberlehrer (who taught French?) who was also a local functionary-or even, say a Sonderfuhrer recalled in 1938.

If it's that old, my guess is 5:3 odds it's ok, but the stitching also sounds faint alarm bells. Stitching is more Stogiemans' area than mine.

Edited November 1, 2006 by Ulsterman

[Mark M]

The style of ribbons folded under "Bavarian" style is most often seen on the fakes coming out of Austria. I was told though that this style was standard post 1938. Personally, I get gun shy when I see them wrapped this way. This one was just offered to me too.

[attachmentid=59122]

[Mark M]

And the reverse:

[attachmentid=59124]

[Mark M]

Close up of the FJ.

[attachmentid=59125]

[Mark M]

Reverse of the FJ:

[attachmentid=59126]

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gents

my tuppence worth, the EK is held in place by black thread to stop it flopping around, but the Legion of Honour seems to be held in place with string

Also the fadeing on the ribbons is not quite so consistant, especialy if you look on the bottom at the rear in the space between the edge of the ribbon and the backing felt, normaly this area would be out of the light, and one would expect the W?rttemberg yellow to still be strong in this area.

If being put together during WW2 surely the tailor would have used all new ribbons for the entire bar, if there was any hint at the reciepiants WW1 ones showing sign of fade wear?

While not going as far to say fake, there is a possibility in my mind it was put together, from original pieces, but wether as a replacement bar or just to sell I cant say.

Kevin in Deva

[Dave Danner]

I would have doubts about this.

1. I can't think of a context where an Austrian would have only a Golden TM. An officer would have it with the K device (Auflage) and at minimum a bronze Signum Laudis, and likely more. An EM would have silver and bronze bravery medals which wouldn't be removed; you didn't wear the higher bravery medal in lieu of the lower ones.

2. I'm not sure about the order of precedence. The Laeso Militi is generally not considered a "decoration" in the same sense as the W?rttemberg MVM, and should come after it (and possibly after the Ehrenkreuz f?r Frontk?mpfer). In the Austrian order of precedence it ranked after long service crosses and service and commemorative medals. But this is the kind of thing often gotten wrong.

3. The L?gion d'Honneur? I suppose you could come up with a reason for a citizen of the Third Reich to have earned one (likely prior to the Reich/Anschluss) and proudly wear it, but I think it would be a stretch.

[Ulsterman]

I assumed the "golden" large bravery medal was merely a silver one with a photographic lambent sheen on it.

Dave is dead on-as always.

If it's a golden one then no way.

[Josef Rietveld]

...

If it's a golden one then no way.

@Ulsterman, Why?

The are known winners of the GTM (Goldene Tapferkeitsmedaille) who got ONLY the GTM but no other Bravery Medals (Bronze, Silver). So it is possible to wear an GTM, a Karl-Truppen-Kreuz and a Laeso-Militi-Medal on a bar without lower Bravery Medals.

Technical branch seems to be improbable, there should be a merit cross (likely silver or maybe gold), as mentioned before.

Often highly-decorated NCO's could get get an iron merit cross aswell. Though it was institued 1916 for longservice NCO's in the hinterland or at the front but with no normally combat-assignment, it was given to young deserved NCO's aswell.

BTW whatever the OMSA says. in 1916 a lot of the iron merit crosses were issued with red ribbon for military personal in the hinterland.

regards

haynau

[Stogieman]

I cannot accept Mark's posted bar as a period item. At first glance, it appears to be a war-time, or pre-1933 piece.... however, the probability of an Austrian officer (as he must be with an FJO RKmKD) utilizing this type of a mount during this era is in the extreme....

[Ulsterman]

@Ulsterman, Why?

The are known winners of the GTM (Goldene Tapferkeitsmedaille) who got ONLY the GTM but no other Bravery Medals (Bronze, Silver). So it is possible to wear an GTM, a Karl-Truppen-Kreuz and a Laeso-Militi-Medal on a bar without lower Bravery Medals.

Technical branch seems to be improbable, there should be a merit cross (likely silver or maybe gold), as mentioned before.

Often highly-decorated NCO's could get get an iron merit cross aswell. Though it was institued 1916 for longservice NCO's in the hinterland or at the front but with no normally combat-assignment, it was given to young deserved NCO's aswell.

BTW whatever the OMSA says. in 1916 a lot of the iron merit crosses were issued with red ribbon for military personal in the hinterland.

regards

haynau

Because there were what, maybe 12-20 men who only got the golden medal and nothing else?

The lower the probability-well, the lower the probability. I tend to think in terms of odds. At some pont it becomes so improbable that it's more probablt to say "fake". A single golden medal, in conjunction with all of these hat point for me.

Also-the slight chance (if it is real) of a "technical background" is because of the Wurtemberg medal and the state service medal. Who got state service medals? Lots of people, but a good many were those in state industries. Who was more liekly to get a low end state bravery medal from another country? I have seen docs and photos of a few combat soldiers, but many more seem to be worn by rear eschelon types.

Edited November 3, 2006 by Ulsterman

[Josef Rietveld]

@ulsterman,

OK i see the point. it is as often a question of probability.

haynau

[saschaw]

So most of you think "my" bar (indeed, it's my father's) is not genuine, right?

Thanks though for your opinions.

Well, I hope the next time it will be better ...

[Stogieman]

Saschaw, I would not be so quick on yours... when did your Father purchase the bar? The mounting style is a legitimate, WW2 era mount.

The problem in the last few years is the vast quantity of original materials that were flushed out into the market and the relative ease of duplicating this style has resulted in a veritable plethora of new, put-together bars. This causes many of us to suspect everything in this style, often times resulting in good pieces being denigrated for nothing.

Now, what becomes very interesting, IMO, is that this very bar is in the precise, correct mounting precedence for an Austrian... Note that his Austrian Awards precede the W?rttemberg SBM... No German would do that...... I think there's a possibility the bar is legit and am not ready to condemn it just yet...

[saschaw]

Thank you Rick, that encourages me much.

We'll keep it and wait, maybe someday we'll know more about it ...

PS:

It has been bought about five years ago, if I remember correctly, but I'm unaware when the one we got it from bought it ...

Edited November 6, 2006 by saschaw

[saschaw]

Back to topic, please.

Thinking about the combination I came about: an Austrian NCO would NOT have received an Iron Cross, while an Austrian officer could NOT have gotten an W?rttemberg silver military merit medal. The W?rttemberg ribbon is quite the same as for Austrian long service award while the generic red ribbon in last place may well be some peace time Austrian award. Might it be a real bar that has been played with... ?!

Edited December 6, 2008 by saschaw

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

I have a nice Iron Cross award document to an Austrian... it was not impossible... dont forget, Austrian troops served on the Western front as well.

What really makes me scratch my head is the "Frenchman"....

How comman was a LdH to Germans between the wars? How likely was it still to be on the bar in the period after the flower wars?

Best

Chris

[saschaw]

I have a nice Iron Cross award document to an Austrian... it was not impossible... dont forget, Austrian troops served on the Western front as well.

To an officer, not to an NCO? Any Austrian EM or NCO would have received the Prussian Krieger-Verdienstmedaille, EKs were only given to officers. Another thing would be a Austrian in German service, as A. Hitler was. But this combination here is in my humble opinion to an Austrian in an Austrian unit, so the EK would make him an officer.

How comman was a LdH to Germans between the wars? How likely was it still to be on the bar in the period after the flower wars?

No idea how common it was and guess it was rather unususal, but many did continued to wear enemy awards, in any war and era. But, he would presumably have gotten it as a "still-Austrian" pre-1938.

The longer I look at the bar, the less sense it makes. Are you sure the sewing looks fine? I'm honestly not sure about that anymore...

Edited December 6, 2008 by saschaw

[Chris Boonzaier]

Are you sure about the EK?

Mine is indeed to an officer.

Using the logic that usually the Divisional commander awards EKs to troops under his command....

A regular Austrian infantryman would probably never get an EK as his own divisional commander would be Austrian and give him an Austrian award...

But if we take the example of Austrian heavy M?rser troops under German command... their bravery awards would have been given by the German command they were serving under... so possibly the EK?

Is there a rule I am unaware of with the EK and Prussian Krieger-Verdienstmedaille?

I really wonder what he could have done to get a LdH?

Usually they would be awarded after yeeeeaaaarrrrrs of Service...

[saschaw]

Yes, I'm sure about the officer/NCO thing. I don't know the exact reason for it but assume it was some kind of rule in the Prussian awarding system. No EKs were given to foreign NCOs and EMs in WWI. For Austrians, I have even the numbers handy for EKs and Krieger-Verdienstmedaillen. In the table it's not mentioned but the EKs went to officers while the KVMs were given to NCOs.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Interesting... I had never seen that in the statutes.....