ID mixed Turkish-Russian-Imperial Bar possible?

[Josef Rietveld]

In another Forum i won the race for this little Bar.

It shows:

1. Turkey Medjidie-Order, 4th Class (golden thugra-center)

2. Imperial Russia, Small Medal for Zealous Service on wrong ribbon

3: REO-Medal typ from 1889 to 1908 (silvered)

The Russian Medal and the REO-medal seem to be Spangenst?cke, the REO-medal is silvered metal? The Medjidie is a Standard-Piece with Shah-Hallmark (looks like an E) and reverse Center Medaillon of the Ottoman Imperial Mint in Constantinople

Unfortunately the Medjidie is loose, the yarn where it was fixed is still on the bar, but this is blessing in disguise:

Two decorations have engravings on the backside:

On the medjidie is written: Stambul November 1898 F. Naumann

On the REO-Medal is written: Stambul 22.II F. Naumann

Stambul is the old German Word for Constantinople (Istanbul)

There were three visits from Emperor Wilhelm II in turkey: 1889, 1889 and 1917

In 1898 the royal couple arrived on October 25th in Haifa to visit jerusalem and Damaskus.BTW the journey was organized by Thomas Cook. later they visited the eccavation in Baalbek and arrived in Instanbul in November. On 1st of December 1898 emperor and empress came back to Berlin.

Part of the emperors entourage during this journey was Friedrich Naumann (1860-1919).

NAUMANN WIKIPEDIA

In 1907 he became member of the reichstag.

MY QUESTION: has somebody the possibility to check if my F. Naumann mentioned on the bar is identical with Friedrich Naumann. Maybe there are lists of the persons who received a REO-Medal or maybe is it possible to trace his decorations because he was Reichstag-Member.

I guess the bar was maybe done in the last days of the Orient-Trip maybe for one of the last pompous feast at the imperial ottoman court because of the Medjidie in 1st position as courtoise to the noble host. That would also explain the wrong ribbon of the russian medal. maybe there wasn't enough time to get the correct ribbon.

Friedrich Naumann was protestant priest, in 1895 he quit with this profession and became free-lancer journalist and author, later politician. I guess the decoration shown on the bar were his first decorations ever. Maybe he was so proud, that he ordered this special engravings. Just my speculations.

I'am very courios about the forumites thoughts on this bar.

regards

Haynau

[Josef Rietveld]

details:

[Josef Rietveld]

details II

[Josef Rietveld]

details III

[Jacky]

Hi Haynau, Wonderfull bar,

Would love to know more about this history..

How ever, about the russian medal and it's ribbon, did you know that different ribbons had a different meaning for the medal for zeal?? Some were on the St Anne ribbon etc etc to denote bravery etc

As I don't collect russian, it's just my 2 cents worth and needs review from a more experted member.

Kind regards,

Jacky

[saschaw]

A really great and "sexy" bar, congratulations! Extreme rare combination, and also the "Spangenst?cke" much rarer than the awarded ones, Red Eagle medal as well as the Russian one ...

I guess the bar was maybe done in the last days of the Orient-Trip maybe for one of the last pompous feast at the imperial ottoman court because of the Medjidie in 1st position as courtoise to the noble host. That would also explain the wrong ribbon of the russian medal. maybe there wasn't enough time to get the correct ribbon.

Indeed the Ottoman is the last one, as it is a "Frackspange".

[Riley1965]

That's a BEAUTIFUL bar Little by little I learn more about Imperial ODMs. Thanks Guys!!!

Doc

[GeorgeCL]

The solid RED ribbon for Zeal would be correct.

George

[Ulsterman]

...and the Ordensalmanach says...?

looks like it is his bar as other possibilities seem unlikely . Nice one.

[Guest Rick Research]

Wrong Friedrich Naumann.

Here he is, from page 1056 of the 1908/09 German Orders Almanac (Paul Chepurko's excellent version on CD which saves my ragged old copy from further wear and tear)---

[attachmentid=61740]

The full monitor screen wide sizable CD version also saves my ragged old eyes from the strain of perusing the microscopic two columns per page that is the original.

[Ulsterman]

drat!

NCO or valet?

[Guest Rick Research]

Well, it says "Hotelier," which implies he was the manager if not owner. (I know I have the NAME of the hotel at that address somewhere.... )

Maybe a Teutonic version of Basil Fawlty. The location was certainly great right there in the beating heart of the Empire right behind the Brandenburg Gate, one street over from the Wilhelmstrasse and within spitting distance of the General Staff Academy... but maybe the service wasn't so grand!

[attachmentid=61746]

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

A Hotelier! Oh my gawd. No offense, just my preference, but I really prefer the bars with the swords somewhere on at least one of them. The bar is just beautiful though. That Turkish award is just gorgeous.

[Guest Rick Research]

They also serve who fluff the pillows!!!

Actually, it is much HARDER-- most often impossible-- to "find" this sort of civilian recipient.

So an attributed NON-military group is about ten times scarcer than an attributable military one.

[Ed_Haynes]

And, for some of us, twenty times more interesting than one with those silly swords!

[Riley1965]

My "all things Imperial" education continues today. Thank You gentlemen!!!

Doc

[Jacky]

However, I can't read what kind of medals he should have had according to the paper,

Could someone translate it for me???

Kind regards,

Jacky

[Deruelle]

Hi Jacky

Pr RAM : Red Eagle medal Prussia

T?rM4: Medjidie cross 4th class from Turkey

regards

Christophe

[Josef Rietveld]

Indeed the Ottoman is the last one, as it is a "Frackspange". A really great and "sexy" bar, congratulations! Extreme rare combination, and also the "Spangenst?cke" much rarer than the awarded ones, Red Eagle medal as well as the Russian one ...

@Sascha, Shame on me. I should have recognized that

Rick, thanks for the quick research. one more question: The fact that the ordesalmanach from 1908/09 doesn't mention the medal for zeal indicates that he received this decoration after 1908? or maybe he didnT announce that he received this medal aswell?

Actually, it is much HARDER-- most often impossible-- to "find" this sort of civilian recipient.

So an attributed NON-military group is about ten times scarcer than an attributable military one.

WOW

And, for some of us, twenty times more interesting than one with those silly swords!

@Ed Haynes thanks, that is like Candy for me

Thanks to all for their comments and corrections. I'am glad that in financial terms i bit the bullet this time. It seems to be a unique piece and i'am very very happy.

Do you think it should be repaired and the medjidie fixed to the bar again? I think i will have that done.

regards

Josef (haynau)

Edited November 23, 2006 by haynau