Bavarian ribbon bars

[Bernd D]

Hello,

Kaufmann first six decorations are:

EK II

HHO Rx - 1918

PKO 4x - 1907

MMJO R - 1914

MVO 4mKrx - 1915

MVO 4x - 1907

Bernd

[Bernd D]

Another one

Bernd

[Bernd D]

and

[saschaw]

Veeery nice bars you have ...

Here's my one and only Bavarian ribbon bar: not identified, I'm not even sure with the awards on it ...

I love the combination of high Bavarian awards with the WWI central powers Austria, Bulgaria and Ottoman Empire.

My guess is/was:

- Bayern, Milit?r Max Joseph-Orden, Ritterkreuz;

- Bayern, Milit?r-Verdienstorden (III. Klasse mit der Krone?);

- Preu?en, Kriegsband (evtl. HOH, Ritter mit Schwertern);

- Bayern, Prinzregent Luitpold-Medaille 1905(?);

- Preu?en, Eisernes Kreuz II. Klasse;

- ?sterreich, Milit?rverdienstkreuz III. Kl. mit der KD III. Klasse;

- Bulgarien, Milit?rverdienstorden, Ritterkreuz;

- Osmanisches Reich, Osmanie-Orden, Ritterdekoration;

- Osmanisches Reich, Medjidie-Orden, Ritterdekoration;

- Osmanisches Reich, Kriegsmedaille (?Eiserner Halbmond?).

Pardon it's in German, but I'm nonetheless quiete sure you unterstand what I want to express with it.

[Deruelle]

Hi,

Regarding the ribbon bar of Major Lukas Ritter von Kaufmann he received the following awards

EK2, 26 november 1914

HHOX, 19 october 1918

PKO4X, 8 august 1907

MJ3, 21 may 1915

BMVO4X m. Kr., 15 january 1915

BMVO4X, 21 october 1907

EfF, 1934

DSWA, 1907

DA 24 years, 23 may 1918

J, 21 march 1905

He also received the EK1, 12 december 1916 and the wound black badge on october 1918. Please look at the other von Kaufmann's ribbon bar.

Regards

Christophe

[Deruelle]

Bernd and Saschaw, your ribbon bars are so nice. I'm jealous. I will look for id your ribbon bar if you haven't the name, and as soon as I have something I will give you a pm.

Regards

Christophe

[saschaw]

Bernd and Saschaw, your ribbon bars are so nice. I'm jealous. I will look for id your ribbon bar if you haven't the name, and as soon as I have something I will give you a pm.

Well thanks, but I think we should firstly clear what the things on my bar are indeed, hmm?! I'm still not sure with the Bavarian MMO (war ribbon, but no swords!) and the two Prussian war ribbons ...

[Guest Rick Research]

The swords are presumed from that ribbon-- BMV4XmKr.

Those are quite freakish tiny swords on the Turkish ribbons. What color are they supposed to be? I can't tell.

Also quite bizarre "donut" on the ?M3K ribbon.

Not having any immediate luck thinking of any appropriate MMJO Ritter.

[saschaw]

Thanks for your opinion, always nice to ge to know your's ...

Those are quite freakish tiny swords on the Turkish ribbons. What color are they supposed to be? I can't tell.

Bronce, I'd think ... Indeed strange, bronce swords instead of gold sabers (which don't belong there, most likely) ...

[Guest Rick Research]

It's driving me buggy, because that is obviously an old bar. It MIGHT be a Tapferkeitsmedaille on there instead of a Max Joseph-Ritter.

Not Kress von Kressenstein. Not D?sel....

it has GOT to be "findable," but I suspect the Turkish ribbons aren't right--like those swords, and no device at all on the Bulgarian one isn't helping. Sigh.

[saschaw]

Okay Rick, thanks for your help.

So I guess it might be one of the "we will never know anything for sure" bars ...

[Guest Rick Research]

No, it will turn up sometime. I just have SO MUCH TO DO with the award rolls-- spending 40 hours a week on those does not leave me the spare 6 hours or so that every such ribbon or medal bar used to.

maybe in 2008....

[webr55]

Rick Research said:

No, it will turn up sometime. I just have SO MUCH TO DO with the award rolls-- spending 40 hours a week on those does not leave me the spare 6 hours or so that every such ribbon or medal bar used to.

maybe in 2008....

Here is my list of suspects with BMJ, BMV4mKr and HHOX and no other awards in RH ranklists. I have eliminated those who were KIA, though that might be too strict. I don't have the last Bavarian ranklists, so maybe someone else could narrow the list a bit more down.

Ernst Brunner

August Döderlein

Karl Düwell

Wilhelm Eitzenberger

Hermann Giehrl

Emerich Freiherr v. Godin

Friedrich Kraußer

Wilhelm Reitzenstein

Johann/Hans Seißer

Gottfried Graf v. Tattenbach

Friedrich Tumma

Friedrich v. Weech

Edited November 13, 2017 by webr55

[Guest Rick Research]

Nope. None of those.

Seisser, commander of the LaPo, died in 1973 at age 99, as a result of which the records of the Beer Hall Putsch of 1923 trials will be sealed until 2072.

[saschaw]

Hey guys, thanks for your help, it seems I forgot the thread back then, long ago - my apologize.

Here's a Bavarian ribbon bar I bought recently. It came with some others I'll might show later, even one of the same recipient. You probably want to guess the grades of the Military Merit Orders, please? The 5th might be a W?rttemberg Friedrichs Order as well as a Prussia Crown Order. I've seen yet many Bavarian (high) officer's bars without any Prussian orders, so my guess'd be that the W?rttemberger is at least as likely as the Prussian one, or even more.

[Stogieman]

Interesting bar. I'd say BMVO4wX, BMVO4, EK2, Jubilee, PCO4, LSC

[saschaw]

Interesting bar. I'd say BMVO4wX, BMVO4, EK2, Jubilee, PCO4, LSC

Thanks for your input, but noooooooo. They're higher. BMVO3aX(!) with BMVO4a and, as I said, not sure about the blue ribbon ...

Seems to be involved in something medical, as he later got an Prussian and an Austrian Red Cross award. Ribbons are silk, backing is as well.

[saschaw]

And the back, very fine quality and still very nice condition:

Edited April 26, 2007 by saschaw

[saschaw]

And the devices: real silver, and maybe ...

[saschaw]

Hmm, is real gold possible for a World War I ribbon bar device? I' not sure, silver and silver gilt might be more likely ...

[Deruelle]

Hi,

In the Milit?r Handbuch 1913, we can find only one doctor officer who received the BavrianMilitary Merit Order and the Prussian Crown Order.

Generaloberarzt Maximilian Rapp. He received BMVO4a, PKO3, J. He survived the war. It is probably him. In the Roth's Bavarian book, Rapp received the BMVO3aX. So your ribbon missend the X on the first ribbon.

Rick may have all the complementary informations.

Regards

Christophe

[Guest Rick Research]

In the April 1916 Rank List he has the BMV3XmKr and EK2, but not the PrRKM3 or whatever grade (Commander? Officer? that Austrian Red Cross ribbon represents).

No birth data in Bavarian Military Hand Books for doctors.

Unfortunately, there is only one way to tell about the devices. You will have to send the ribbon bars... um, both of them... to me for, um... extensive highly complicated metallurgical evaluations. Yes, that's it... metallurgical evaluations. It should only take... a few years. really.

[Stogieman]

Don't do it.... he wants to LICK the devices!

[saschaw]

A thousand thanks Gentlemen for the name, you're amazing. I'll name my first born girl (!!!) after you two. Hmm ... will sound strange, but that's worth it for sure. But it still has to be him, doesn't it?

So your ribbon missend the X on the first ribbon.

I'd say there have never been any, they just made it like this. The war ribbon does yet indicate the swords, so they might have been thinking there wasn't a need for it.

Don't do it.... he wants to LICK the devices!

What do you think I am doing all the time?!

Unfortunately, there is only one way to tell about the devices. You will have to send the ribbon bars... um, both of them... to me for, um... extensive highly complicated metallurgical evaluations. Yes, that's it... metallurgical evaluations. It should only take... a few years. really.

I'll think about it, as there is another ribbon bar I'm not yet sure with - you know which ...

[saschaw]

Here two more Bavarian ribbon bars, that came with the two above. Both with Bavarian Bravery medal, one big from WW II era, another one which should be still WW I:

Firstly, the biiiiiiig one:

- Preu?en, Eisernes Kreuz 1914 II. Klasse;

- Bayern, Silberne Milit?r-Verdienstmedaille (Tapferkeitsmedaille);

- Bayern, Milit?r-Verdienstkreuz III. Klasse mit Schwertern;

- Dt. Reich, Kriegsverdienstkreuz 1939 II. Klasse mit Schwertern;

- Dt. Reich, Volkspflege-Ehrenzeichen bzw. Medaille dazu;

- Dt. Reich, Ehrenkreuz f?r Frontk?mpfer;

- Bayern, Jubil?umsmedaille f?r die Armee 1905(?);

- Dt. Reich, Luftschutz-Ehrenzeichen II. Klasse.

(the bar itself is broken, but as long as you don't want to w e a r it, no problem )