Mongolia Fakes!

[Bob]

For general education, let's post any (suspected) fakes in here for discussion. I'll start with the Soyombo which recently popped up and will in fact add some pics of another suspected fake Soyombo a bit later as well.

This one I believe is fake because:

- incorrect screwplate

- incorrect "pattern" of enamel on suspension

- poor quality / different color of enamel on main medaillion

- overall poor crafstmanship

[Bob]

For comparison - here's a good one

[Bob]

And here is an oddity... number 114... in the end I didn't trust it when it was offered to me:

- enamel didn't seem right

- why each picture with a different background?

My suspicion was that the "good" pictures were from a different Soyombo.

[Bob]

And 2 more pics of same "offer"

[Bob]

And again, for comparison, a confirmed real one. Number 373.

You can see for instance darker enamel.

Edited September 28, 2006 by Bob

[Ed_Haynes]

I hope we don't descend into that lonely masturbatory (can I say that on the forum?) corner where our cousins who do Soviet or Nazi awards reside and resort to a constant whining drumbeat of "fake - fake - fake".

Yes, there are fakes out there. As prices rise and supplies stagnate, they are likely to increase. Yet there are also so many things that we don't understand (or even begin to know) about Mongolian awards, that I'd be reluctant to dismiss too many things too readily as fakes. Fantasies like that early internal security badge may be, I sumbit, another issue -- though we need to be careful even there, for their are surely things we don't know about (yet).

However, there are things -- maybe naughty things -- going on with the "Gold Soyembo" awards. But there are also confusing internal complexities that we need to think about before shouting the "F-Word" too readily. The type 1.1 and type 2 badges (ignoring the type 1.2, which may well be a one-off for Tsedenbal) seem to suffer from a Polar-Star-style embedding of serial number ranges, suggesting that something more complex than an "early Soviet-made, late Mongol-made" scenario is at work:

Type 1.1 - Low = 4 / High = 373

Type 2 - Low = 115 / High = 420

(Both these trouble-making "highs" are, by the way, shown above as examples of "good" awards.)

The fact that the "bad boy" that commenced this discussion (and this thread) falls easily within the type 2 range, and not even toward the high end of that, makes me wonder about the "current ugly issue" theory. If the number were in the 500s, . . . ??? (Hope that doesn't educate the fake-makers?)

I am, by the way, quite willing to accept the HYPOTHETICAL existence of a "type 3", a nasty contemporary issue. I would just love to see some evidence for this. And I'm not sure what we now know lets us call anything "evidence".

So many things about this badge look so bad (same for some of the others Bob has posted), but we all know how a bad scan or, worse, a bad digital photo can make the best thing in the world look like last year's khor-khog.

I don't pretend to know the answers, but I know these are things we need to discuss seriously.

Edited September 28, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Dolf]

I'm quoting here what I posted in another Forum about this piece, based only on the two poor pics available:

"...Now, about this piece: I must admit that personally I'm not yet 100% convinced it is a real fake. This piece (especially the blue color within the central circle) looks like the new brass Order of Sukhbaatar, so still imho it could be a new type of the Medal.

Notice that this is only mho based on the couple of pics posted compared to the new brass SB I handled, and I have no further confirmation from the source that such new type of this Medal exists and didn't even asked for confirmation.

Notice also that I don't say it's not a fake, that is also perfectly possible, even thought it would be the very first fake Golden Soyombo I'd be seing!..."

And:

"...Anyway, I guess that what's important now is to find out if this is a fake (that's scary! ) or if it could be one of those new brass types.

So it would be very helpful if XXX could post much better and detailed pics, by preference with no background pictures or colors, and if possible closeups of the medallion (front and back) and of the suspension (also front and back)..."

In conclusion, we need more information about this piece before we can state for sure that it is a fake.

Just my two tugriks,

Dolf

PS: XXX = the member who initially posted it in the For Sale Room.

Edited September 28, 2006 by Dolf

[Bob]

To make the thread complete (and allow us to change this site to www.mongolian-awards.com) would be if somebody came in and claims that it is a wearer's copy

[Ed_Haynes]

To make the thread complete (and allow us to change this site to www.mongolian-awards.com) would be if somebody came in and claims that it is a wearer's copy

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO . . . sounds of screams receeding into the distance . . . .

[fjcp]

Khalkin Gol fake thread here:

Khalkin Gol

JC

[Ed_Haynes]

. . . what I posted in another Forum about this piece . . . .

Not to get us into inter-forum rivalry -- of course -- but isn't this the Class-A Number-1 place for Mongolian awards??

Why even bother to talk about them in lesser venues??

Edited September 28, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Ed_Haynes]

Khalkin Gol fake thread here:

Khalkin Gol

JC

Thanks for reminding us, JC.

[Dolf]

Not to get us into inter-forum rivalry -- of course -- but isn't this the Class-A Number-1 place for Mongolian awards??

Absolutely! No question about that my dear Ed.

Why do you think this is my #1 Forum now, since Mongolian awards became my #1 field of collecting and I discovered the GMIC? (Thank you Jan, btw)

Why even bother to talk about them in lesser venues??

It just happened that the question was mentioned there before here, so just a question of timing.

Also now a Type 2 that I had in my possession for some time, then sold it to a Chinese dealer that finally sold it to another member of both Forums (pics available on this same thread on Post #2) was also questioned so of course I had once again to clarify things: I know for sure that the one I had is a 100% genuine piece!

LOL...

Dolf

[reichsrommel]

Hi, All

First, please accept my sincere apology for that questionable Soyombo. As I metioned in the private message to Bob in another forum, the seller who sold it to me insist it is a new type. But unfortunately, there is no evidence suporting his words. So I accept Bob and other friend's advice, and return it to the seller. Sorry I can't provide more pictures about it, but I will try to contact him to ask pictures. But you know, may be he can't be will to provide pictures. Anyway, I will try my best!

Tang Si

[Bob]

Hi, All

First, please accept my sincere apology for that questionable Soyombo. As I metioned in the private message to Bob in another forum, the seller who sold it to me insist it is a new type. But unfortunately, there is no evidence suporting his words. So I accept Bob and other friend's advice, and return it to the seller. Sorry I can't provide more pictures about it, but I will try to contact him to ask pictures. But you know, may be he can't be will to provide pictures. Anyway, I will try my best!

Tang Si

Tang Si, mst useful wuold be to ask him why he beleives it is a genuine copy What are his supporting facts?

[Ed_Haynes]

Thanks, Tang Si, for your comments. Apparently so much of this tale has been played out by private messages and in other places, that it is sometimes difficult to follow the story.

As I said above, I haven't seen enough evidence here (the main discussion forum for Mongolian awards in the world ) to make a firm decision in the "fave" vs. "new type" issue. This is especially the case when so much of the discussion seems to be taking place off-forum.

My mind remains open and interested.

[Bob]

A number of people (incl. myself to a small extent) are not convinced that it is a fake Soyombo. If real, what would explain the Soviet screw on the suspension?

I thought nowadays all awards were produced in UB? Besides, if made in Russia, wouldn't the quality of the overall item be MUCH higher?

[Ed_Haynes]

A number of people (incl. myself to a small extent) are not convinced that it is a fake Soyombo. If real, what would explain the Soviet screw on the suspension?

Not sure, but as we all know screws and awards often are the result of a free-and-easy mix-and-match process.

I thought nowadays all awards were produced in UB? Besides, if made in Russia, wouldn't the quality of the overall item be MUCH higher?

That was my understanding too. But, if you look at the quality of current Russian awards, this medal (even from the one poor image available) could easily fall within the poor quality range of a contemporary Russian manufacture. I'd still suspect the current awards, without exception, are of domestic manufacture. The only exception would, presumably, be a Hero, where there are still a few specimens in stock, for hypothetical future use.

[HuliganRS]

Not to get us into inter-forum rivalry -- of course -- but isn't this the Class-A Number-1 place for Mongolian awards??

Why even bother to talk about them in lesser venues??

it never stops...

[Dolf]

it never stops...

My dear Rusty,

I don't think I mentioned in which Forum I posted that, so I believe Ed couldn't know which Forum I was talking about! It could have been the WAF, or any other Forum!

Anyway, you know I'm a member of (at least) both this Forum and the one you're talking about.

The S-A Forum is indeed a great reference for Soviet awards, probably the best in the Western World.

That is its speciality after all.

Now, knowing both Forums, I also know that as far as Mongolian awards are concerned, the GMIC has evolved in such a way that IMHO today it IS the best reference for Mongolian Awards!

Just my two tugriks,

Dolf

[HuliganRS]

Dolf,

Ed is also a member of both forums, so am I for that matter.

Rusty.

[Ed_Haynes]

Dolf,

Ed is also a member of both forums, so am I for that matter.

Rusty.

Yes, and at the express request of a person I respect, who unfortunately spends most of his time "over there", I posted some of my Mongolian (but never my Soviet) collection over there. Given the attitudes expressed here, I probably won't repeat that mistake.

I am disinterested in giving or receiving personal attacks.

[Dolf]

Dolf,

Ed is also a member of both forums, so am I for that matter.

Rusty.

Rusty,

I know...

I just don't think there was any bad intention in that Post.

At least I took it more like a funny comment, nothing more.

Cheers,

Dolf

PS: Quoting Ed in that Post: "...Not to get us into inter-forum rivalry..."

Please no "war" between Forums, buddy, after all we are all on the same side and sharing common interests, and the fact one Forum may be better in one field doesn't in any way devalorize any other Forum that might be better in another field. Both complement each other. So please shake hands and let's move forward my friends.

Dolf

Edited October 9, 2006 by Dolf

[HuliganRS]

Ed & Dolf:

I'm not here to start forum wars.

I have made my opinion known to Ed in PM's that I sent to him a while back.

It didn't come off as a "funny comment" nor was it taken that way by other members.

Ed, you are free to do as you please.

Rusty.

Edited October 9, 2006 by HuliganRS

[Bob]

I'm not here to start forum wars.

To paraphrase John Steinbeck: "forum wars are just like ice hockey, there are no winners... only survivors"