Soviet 1943 Regulations for the Conversion of Medals

[JimZ]

I have not come across the 1943 regulations that have changed the method of wear of Soviet awards and medals but some of you probably have. I have some problems undertsanding the logic. The older awards as follows all were changed from Screwback to 5 sided suspension

1918 Order of Red Banner - Screwback to 5 sided suspension

1928 Order of the Red banner of Labour - Screwback to suspenison

1930 Order of Lenin - Screwback to 5 sided suspenison

1935 Order of the Badge of honour - Screwback to 5 sided suspenison

So far so good. Later awards (orders/medals) that were ioriginally ssued with rectangular suspension were also subject to conversion. However this is where the consistency seems to stop:

1938 Medal for bravery - Rect Suspension to 5 sided suspension

1938 Medal for combat service (military merits)- Rect Suspension to 5 sided suspension

So far still so good. However, the following rectangular suspensions were instead converted to screwbacks.

1942 Order of the Great Patriotic war - Rect Suspension to screwback

1942 Order of Suvorov - Rect Suspension to screwback

1942 Order of Kutuzov - Rect Suspension to screwback

1942 Order of Nevsky - Rect Suspension to screwback

What is the logic behind these changes? Why were screwbacks converted to 5 sided suspensions and and rectangular suspension awards in part converted to screwbacks and in part to 5 sided suspension? Can anyone throw enlighten me please as I must admit I have never really asked myself this question.

Jim

[Ed_Haynes]

Interesting! Great question.

[lentiay]

Personally I see some reasons. But it only my personal vision. I never about it reflected seriously.

1. Medals for services in battle, for courage, 20 years РККА, labour difference and labour valour - early variants all had red tapes. And on a rod what exactly was not clear for a medal the person has. After the decree each of the listed medals has received individual ленточку, and now on a rod it was possible to understand, that the person has.

[lentiay]

2. Pay attention, that Lenin, the RED BANNER, the Sign on honour - carry by position on the left party of a breast. Among medals on pentagonal колодке. It was logical to make all awards which carry on the left party of a breast with pentagonal колодками for convenience - logically.

[lentiay]

3. And полководческие awards and an award of domestic war carry all from the right party, in the certain sequence, and also for convenience - screw fastening is better. Besides it fastening on rectangular колодках - not so reliably and rationally as screw fastening.

I shall remind, that it only my personal opinion, and I can deeply be mistaken.

[JimZ]

Sorry if I may not understand everything Lentiay.... but I too will make an effort!! Also keeping your points in one post would just make for better reading and logical sequence in case someone cuts in between yours thus breaking up the sequence! But from what you said my comments are as follows:

1) Changing the ribbons from red to any other coloured ribbon does not necessitate changing the suspension so I doubt that could have been a reason in itself.

2) I did get the right and left breast and method of wear being the same on each breast is infact logical. But that just raises another question.... why were some orders to be worn on the right breast and others on the left? The Order of Lenin/ Redbanner/ Order of Badge of Honour / Order of Red banner labour were all to be worn on the left breast. But why not have orders on the right breast and medals on the left?

3) 4 Screwback became pin suspensions..... if its as you suggested all the orders would become screwback for safer fastening. It does not sound consistent enough.

Also, if after the revolution ODMs were by and large screwback or suspended by rectangular suspensions, why in 1943 did Stalin (I assume) back step to the older and more traditonal Russian (Czarist if I may) 5 sided suspension piece....... in a way, a symbol of the old regime that the revolution had overthrown.

Also, I am sure something in writing was issued in the form of a decree.... does this exist or does anyone have a copy or translation of it? I do however believe that such document would probably only explain the new rules and not the reasons behind it!

Jim

[lentiay]

Pentagonal suspension brackets to unite together - the general rod easier. And the document the approving order of carrying and all changes for certain is.

Once again I am sorry for my English language, for this reason there can be a lot of misunderstanding.

Maxim.

[SWE Erik]

Also, if after the revolution ODMs were by and large screwback or suspended by rectangular suspensions, why in 1943 did Stalin (I assume) back step to the older and more traditonal Russian (Czarist if I may) 5 sided suspension piece....... in a way, a symbol of the old regime that the revolution had overthrown.

Jim

I believe that I read somewhere that Stalin liked the design of the old russian uniform. Thats why later uniforms looks much like them. Perhaps the 5-sided suspension was introduced for the same reason?

Just a guess...

/Erik

[Christian Zulus]

I believe that I read somewhere that Stalin liked the design of the old russian uniform. Thats why later uniforms looks much like them. Perhaps the 5-sided suspension was introduced for the same reason?

Just a guess...

/Erik

Dear Erik,

that war had come out to be the "Great Patriotic War" - so the obvious resemblances to the Czarist-Period .

You think, that a Roosevelt or a Churchill would have killed the Nazi-monster ...

Best regards

Christian

[Guest Rick Research]

I think it was probably as simple as which awards COULD be changed from screwback to ribbons without being too big or heavy.

The Patriotic Wars, Suvorovs, Nevskys etc etc were HUGE and awkward on their tiny suspensions. Even the little reinforcing "popsicle stick" reverses kept breaking off. So there was no way something like that could be hung from a ribbon.

But then I have never understood the bizarre Russian practice of USING screwbacks, which ruin clothing by jamming HOLES through every time an award is screwed on and off, rarher than the simpler method most other countries with non-ribboned awards use of pinbacks, for which small cloth loops can be sewn ONTO the clothing with much less destruction of material. American fire and police badges are held on by very strong little metal plates sewn to the uniform which provide a rigid--and unseen--support for pinbacked badges that could well be used for any sort of award.

And there seems to be some regression in Federation awards-- look at the too big and ugly Tsarist-looking crosses for recent campaigns-- right back on tiny little ribbons again so they cannot hang neatly in a medal group, but are screwed in all over uniforms and clothing.

The Russian/Soviet style of pentagonal flat mounted ribbons is in my opinion the nicest, sharpest, and best way to wear grouped medals that has ever been created.

Anything OFF medal bars just looks ... messy.

[JimZ]

Seems a logical enough explanation! I somehow expected something more definitive but the size/weight of the item does make a lot of sense!

One other question. when the new regulations came out, how were awarded medals to be converted? Could they be sent back in to mints or was it up to each awardee to convert his own orders. We do see some interesting home made as well as mint conversions, the thread on the ORB conversions being of utmost interest as far as this is concerned..... however what was the situation.... were each to be left to their own devices in converting the old awards to conform to the new regulations?

I must also mention that in my list I failed to include the XX years of RKKA which also was converted from a rectangular suspension to new 5 sided suspension!

Jim

[Belaruski]

Just a thought. Most of the 'right breast' orders were specifically WW2 awards (although granted not all (Red Star!). Whereas medals and other Soviet awards where to be worn on the left. This also is a guess!

[Ed_Haynes]

Interesting question. But the problem is that we sit, here, many kilometers (most of us) and many years (all of us) away from the time and place and circumstances of the original decision. Until and unless someone takes the time and effort actually to look at the archival records and explore this question seriously, we'll just be wildly and irrelevantly guessing.

I guess that is OK if it is fun, but let us not confuse this fun with anything that tells us anything at all about phaleristic history.

[Christophe]

Most interesting subject, here. A lot of great things have already been said in the thread, and as no text seems to give us an "official" or real explanation about the logic behind; I guess we can only build theories without means of validating them or not.

But, let's have fun!!!

My turn to propose or elaborate a few comments and suggestions. First a few remarks :

There seems to be a time dimension:

Let's look at the dates of establishment of these orders and medals :

1918-1935 : Order of Red Banner, Order of the Red banner of Labor, Order of Lenin, Order of the Red Star, Order of the Badge of Honor established. All screwback.

1938, 24 January : Medal 20 Years of Red Army. Early red suspension (simpler type than Order's).

1938, 17 October : Medal for Bravery, Medal for Combat Service. Early red suspension (simpler type than Order's).

1938, 27 December : Medal for Valiant Labor, Medal for distinguished Labor. Early red suspension (triangular).

----

1939, 1 August : HSU. Early red suspension.

1940, 22 May : HSL. Early red suspension.

----

1942, 20 May : Order of Patriotic War. Early red suspension.

1942, 29 July : Order of Suvorov, Order of Kutuzov (1st and 2nd Class only), Order of Alexandre Nevsky. Early red suspension.

1942, 22 December : Leningrad, Odessa, Sevastopol, Stalingrad "Defense of" Medals; 5-sided suspension.

1943, 2 February : Partisans Medals. 5-sided suspension.

1943, 8 February : Order of Kutuzov (3rd Class). Early red suspension.

----

1943, 19 June : New regulation. All early rectangular suspensions abolished, with the exception of the HSU and HSL, which get redesigned rectangular suspensions.

---

1943, 10 October : Order of Bogdan Khmelnitsky. Screwback

1943, 8 November : Order of Victory. Screwback. Ribbon only established on 1944, 18 August.

1943, 8 November : Order of Glory. 5-sided suspension.

1944, 3 March : Order of Ushakov, Order of Nakhimov. Screwback.

1944, 3 March : Ushakov Medal, Nakhimov Medal. 5-sided suspension.

1944, 1 May : Moscow, Caucasus "Defense of" Medal. 5-sided suspension.

1944, 5 December : Soviet Polar Regions "Defense of" Medal. 5-sided suspension.

1945, 9 May : Medal for Victory over Germany. 5-sided suspension.

What can we see?

* 1918-1938 : Interwar and "fundation" of the system period. All Orders are screwback. The Medals are all on a red suspension, with a simpler type than the one that will be later used for Orders. Basic and simple system : Orders are screwback; Medals with a small red ribbon on a suspension. Hierarchy easy to recognise on early photos of wearers.

* 1939-1940 : HSU and HSL. Titles on early red rectangular suspensions. Quality of these suspensions increased compared to medals. More red on uniforms... Not so easy to establish hierarchy, at a first glance. Only the position on the uniform helps.

* 1942 : GPW. War Orders created, with same suspension as the HSU/HSL Titles. So, even more red on the uniforms... Kutuzov 3rd class (February 1943) made consistent with 1st and 2nd Class.

* End 1942 : War Medals appear, with 5-sided suspensions, and specific ribbons, for the 1st time. Red is no more used. Not possible, too many diferent potential red ribbons. Did too much red on uniforms motivated this change ?

* June 1943 : New regulation. Only the Titles keep rectangular suspension, with red color. All top prestigious Orders created during the GPW, and War related, are converted to screwback. All previous Orders become 5-sided suspension. 1 exception : Order of Red Star which stays screwback. Is it because it is the only one very heavily war - and only War - related? All medals converted to 5-sided suspension.

* After June 1943 : All Orders are screwback, except the Order of Glory. War related, it is created on a 5-sided suspension. Established on the same day as the Order of Victory : is this the reason ?

My guesses :

1. A color symbolism issue.

After a period when all Russian awards have been abolished (10 November 1917), the Soviet award system gradually implemented - in the Russian Imperial tradition and in the same spirit as the French Revolution of 1789 - a system of honors and awards based at first on presentation weapons. Then quickly appeared the first Orders of the RSFSR and the Soviet Union. These honors have to be easilmy seen and indentified on an uniform. The red color has been predominant as a symbol.

The first SU Orders where all with the Red Banner related.

The first Medals, which did not displayed the Red Banner, had the red banner color and symbol as a suspension (red ribbon). The symbolic of the red color is there very strong.

The Titles appeared, still with the red ribbon... The first War Orders, also with the red color, multiplied.

2. Need to differentiate Titles from "normal" Orders.

It was probably time to give a hierarchy to the visual aspect of uniforms. Too much red damage the valour of the red color, that becomes banal. That's why, in my opinion, the red supension will only be kept for the highest awards : the HSU and HSL titles.

3.The War Orders preeminence.

The change of regulation occured in June 1943.

At that time, we are fully in the middle of the GPW, or at least -as we at that time did not know that - at a crucial moment when you have to "exhibit" the merits in war.

The screwback conversion of the War orders can be seen - again, in my opinion - in a similar manner as the plaques in the Russian old regime awards system, or other countries system : the top level of awards. Interesting to notice that the sash system has never been used in the Soviet awards system and hierarchy.

The most meritant "soldiers" and "actors" of the GPW must be easily identified. I think the origin of the screwback War Orders (including the Red Star) is there. These Orders differentiate themselves easily from the other Orders and Medals.

There size - big compared to others - and their shape - a star - again goes in this direction : symbolism. Notice the symbolism of the star in the Soviet system...

Here are a few thoughts about this interesting topic. Nothing perfect here, only my guesses.

I have to add that, even later the Soviet system did not seem to be very consistent (100 years Lenin, Medals for Distinguished Service...).

Your opinion or reaction ?

Cheers.

Ch.

Edited January 13, 2007 by Christophe

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Christophe,

highly interesting thoughts .

One of the deceisive points for coming back to the screwback for military orders might have been, that screwbacks are more practiable in every day field service: They can be fixed better and firmer to the cloth and they have no ribbon, which can get easily dirty.

Dirt and the rather loose fixing occured as a problem with the medals and with the Order of Glory. So they invented plastic covers for the ribbons - can be seen in the red PMD-bible - and some extra-fixing to the cloth just above the ring of the orders and medals (this might have been rather rare - I saw this only once at the old book of Dr. Herfurth from the 1980s).

The Order of Glory HAD to be at a ribbon, because of the old "St. George's Crosses", I assume.

But why did they convert the RB ?

Best regards

Christian

[order_of_victory]

Dear Christophe,

highly interesting thoughts .

One of the deceisive points for coming back to the screwback for military orders might have been, that screwbacks are more practiable in every day field service: They can be fixed better and firmer to the cloth and they have no ribbon, which can get easily dirty.

Dirt and the rather loose fixing occured as a problem with the medals and with the Order of Glory. So they invented plastic covers for the ribbons - can be seen in the red PMD-bible - and some extra-fixing to the cloth just above the ring of the orders and medals (this might have been rather rare - I saw this only once at the old book of Dr. Herfurth from the 1980s).

The Order of Glory HAD to be at a ribbon, because of the old "St. George's Crosses", I assume.

But why did they convert the RB ?

Best regards

Christian

Christian,

My thoughts are on the RB are once it was decided that the Glory and and other combat medals were to be ribboned to make the RB fit properly on a Medal Bar the only course was to add suspension

Order of Victory

[Christophe]

(...) So they invented plastic covers for the ribbons - can be seen in the red PMD-bible - and some extra-fixing to the cloth just above the ring of the orders and medals (this might have been rather rare - I saw this only once at the old book of Dr. Herfurth from the 1980s).(...)

Christian

Hi Christian,

I think you are referring to this pic.

Ch.

Pic : Dietrich Herfurth - Milit?rische Auszeichnungen des UdSSR - Berlin, 1987 - page 31.

[Christophe]

Close-up pic showing the extra-fixing "system".

Ch.

Pic : Dietrich Herfurth - Milit?rische Auszeichnungen des UdSSR - Berlin, 1987 - page 31.

[Christian Zulus]

Close-up pic showing the extra-fixing "system".

Ch.

Pic : Dietrich Herfurth - Milit?rische Auszeichnungen des UdSSR - Berlin, 1987 - page 31.

Dear Christophe,

many thanks for finding of the mentioned picture and for showing the scans to us .

You did a job, like in our "Quiz" .

Do you have a glue, how this extra-fixing "system" worked ?

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

Christian,

My thoughts are on the RB are once it was decided that the Glory and and other combat medals were to be ribboned to make the RB fit properly on a Medal Bar the only course was to add suspension

Order of Victory

Dear Vic,

that's a strong argument, which makes sense .

Best regards

Christian

P.S.: Specially for RBs #2, #3, #4, etc. that system makes sense and saves space!

[Christophe]

(...)

Do you have a glue, how this extra-fixing "system" worked ?

(...)

Christian

I have the feeling each order is sewn to the jacket through the loop. It seems to be handmade, a little bit comparable to what we sometimes see with german imperial medal bars. But, the pic is not clear enough to be affirmative...

Ch.

Edited January 14, 2007 by Christophe

[JimZ]

Very very interesting reading Christophe. One should however try to get a copy of the 1943 decree to read through it and see if it throws any light in the form of statements it may make on what goes left, right, screwback or on suspention.

But I am (at heart) not expecting any real logic at the end of the day - look at it as you will there is a wide plethora of suspensions as you mentioned with the small red rectangular suspensions of the HSU and HSL and the later DSM 1st and 2nd and the lenin centinery medal. Add on the regular 5 sided suspensions, the screwback orders and put it all together..... can look tidy until u add on the DSM and the Lenin centineries.....

Jim

[Christian Zulus]

But I am (at heart) not expecting any real logic at the end of the day - look at it as you will there is a wide plethora of suspensions as you mentioned with the small red rectangular suspensions of the HSU and HSL and the later DSM 1st and 2nd and the lenin centinery medal. Add on the regular 5 sided suspensions, the screwback orders and put it all together..... can look tidy until u add on the DSM and the Lenin centineries.....

Dear Jim,

you might be close to the truth in the long history of design for Soviet Awards

In some cases we might find some "logic", but in other cases not .

Best regards

Christian

[Christophe]

I was reading again a few pages of Anatoli Kutsenko's book "Soviet Orders" when I fell on these comments (page 34) :

"(...) Changing the way of fixing the Orders being instituted during the first war years was caused by numerous cases of loosing the rewarding insignia. It was favoured by war conditions and also by the absence of the system of straplets which could have been carried instead of rewards.

Even if a "suspension" order was not lost at presence of other orders and badges, it could considerably spoil their enamelled covering. That's why the first samples of the orders of Suvorov, Kutuzov, Alexander Nevsky and Patriotic War had a special clutch on the reverse side of the order, keeping it from swinging on the strap.

At the same time, mass heroism of the Soviet People in the Great Patriotic War increased the number of bearers of several orders.

In 1943, many people rewarded with orders and medals had to transgress Unit 8 of the General Regulations of the USSR Orders, which said : "Orders of the USSR are to be carried on the left side of chest." There was simply no place over one pocket of a field shirt or a tunic.

That's why the Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR not only ratified the description of straplets, introducing them for everyday wearing on special straps, but also it changed the rules of placing orders on a bearer's chest.

Since that time, the quadrangular straplet of the orders of Suvorov, Kutuzov, Alexander Nevsky and Patriotic War were abolished and these order insignia plus the Order of the Red Star started to be secrewed on the right side of a chest by seniority.

Orders of Lenin, of the Red Banner of Labour and "the Badge of Honour" Order were manufactured with an orifice on the top of the insignia. Now, they were to be fixed on the left side of a chest with the help of a new five-cornered straps. Straps were covered with moire of colour individual for each order and could halfly be an element of general sets of 2, 3 and more sections.

It was not an easy thing to change teh previously given suspension orders into the same but with screw clamp under war conditions and vice versa. Generally, it was done during the preparation for the Victory Parade in May-June 1945. (...)"

Maybe this can bring light in our discussion...

Cheers.

Ch.

[Christian Zulus]

I was reading again a few pages of Anatoli Kutsenko's book "Soviet Orders" when I fell on these comments (page 34) :

Even if a "suspension" order was not lost at presence of other orders and badges, it could considerably spoil their enamelled covering. That's why the first samples of the orders of Suvorov, Kutuzov, Alexander Nevsky and Patriotic War had a special clutch on the reverse side of the order, keeping it from swinging on the strap.

At the same time, mass heroism of the Soviet People in the Great Patriotic War increased the number of bearers of several orders.

Maybe this can bring light in our discussion...

Cheers.

Ch.

Dear Christophe,

many thanks for bringen some light from Anatoli Kutsenko in our discussion .

My theory is now, that Suvorov, Kutuzov, Alexander Nevsky and Patriotic War hat been converted to screwbacks for mere practical reasons:

- Suvorov, Kutuzov & Newsky had been too heavy for wearing them comfortably swinging on the strap.

- Patriotic War had 10 sharp and pointed tips of the 2 stars - also not ideal for swinging on the strap.

On the other side a Lenin or RB had been rather light in weight and rather "round" in design. The heavy RBL screwback lost a lot of weight in the new version at the 5 sided suspension.

So you had some orders for the left and the right side of the chest.

Gentlemen, what is your opinion to this theory ?

Many thanks for your remarks in advance.

Best regards

Christian